Editing Audio In Logic ???

[DigitalMusicProduction]

Hi

Recently purchased Yamahas P515 digital piano and intend to use either it's CFX or Bosendorfer as part of a score for a soundtrack. I'm used to working with piano sample library's editing piano in MIDI, but seeing as I'll be using the on-board pianos from the P515, how much piano editing can be done regarding audio?

I'm aware such modifications as note velocity, adding, moving and correction of individual notes would not be possible, if I'm correct? Therefore was is the extent one can edit piano when working with audio using Logic Pro.

[muzines]

I'm aware such modifications as note velocity, adding, moving and correction of individual notes would not be possible, if I'm correct?

As long as the piano has MIDI (they all do nowadays), you can record, edit the MIDI data in exactly the same way as using a software instrument.

You'll eventually need to record the piano part as audio if you want to use it's own onboard piano sound, but you only do that when you've finished tidying up your MIDI performances.

[Drew Stephenson]

What Muzines said ^^^.
Record the midi, edit it as usual, send it back to the piano to record the audio back in.

[James Perrett]

These days it is possible to edit an audio recording of a piano part in the same way that you would edit a Midi part but it isn't easy and isn't something I would want to do if there was another way of doing things.

[DigitalMusicProduction]

These days it is possible to edit an audio recording of a piano part in the same way that you would edit a Midi part.

How then is that possible? As I didn't think editing audio was as advanced as editing midi?

[Hugh Robjohns]

You can obviously edit between different takes. You can also alter the volume of individual notes, and even within chords using spectral editing. And can replace or repitch notes. To a limited degree it's also possible to reposition notes to adjust timing...

But these are mostly very advanced and complex things to do requiring specialised software beyond Logic's capabilities, as well as a great deal of time, effort, and experience. Such techniques would be more appropriate to save an unrepeatable recording, rather than manufacturing one.

You will get much faster and better results by either:

1. Performing the piece accurately, in short sections if necessary, and edit the good sections together, or drop-in corrections as necessary.

2. Record the performance MIDI, edit the MIDI to remove errors, replay the MIDI and record the resulting virtual performance.

[DigitalMusicProduction]

What Muzines said ^^^.
Record the midi, edit it as usual, send it back to the piano to record the audio back in.

Could you explain further on that as I'm not sure where your coming from. I'm assuming you mean to export the recorded Midi data back to a software piano sample library? That wasn't my intention but rather to record and edit the actual on-board piano as audio using the yamaha P515

[Wonks]

Play the P515 whilst recording the MIDI output.

Then edit the MIDI to correct any mistakes or things you feel could be better.*

Then play back the MIDI through the P515 and record its audio output. You might need to drag the recorded audio slightly to make up for timing delays from the MIDI process if you are playing to a backing track.

*When editing the MIDI, it’s up to you whether you play it back through the P515 or through a software piano.

[Drew Stephenson]

What Wonks said ^^^.

[James Perrett]

These days it is possible to edit an audio recording of a piano part in the same way that you would edit a Midi part.

How then is that possible? As I didn't think editing audio was as advanced as editing midi?

Hugh has pretty much summed it up. It is possible to edit individual notes with spectral editing using programs like Izotope RX but it is nothing like as easy as editing Midi notes. Re-recording the section and editing it in is probably quicker.

[DigitalMusicProduction]

Play the P515 whilst recording the MIDI output.

Then edit the MIDI to correct any mistakes or things you feel could be better.*

Then play back the MIDI through the P515 and record its audio output. You might need to drag the recorded audio slightly to make up for timing delays from the MIDI process if you are playing to a backing track.

*When editing the MIDI, it’s up to you whether you play it back through the P515 or through a software piano.

Wonks forgive me for my lack of production knowledge but I'm still not understanding your point.

You mention to play the P515 whilst recording the MIDI output, but playing the P515 piano sound will result in recording audio not MIDI.

You then mention to play back the MIDI through the P515 and record its audio output, some what confused there.

Lastly when editing the MIDI, it’s up to me whether i play it back through the P515 or through a software piano, Mmm

Just to recap, my original intention was to record the on-board piano sound from the P515 and wanted to know what was the extent of editing that could be done with an audio recording, however it seems your response is saying I could record the P515 piano sound as MIDI and not audio, please correct the confusion.

[IAA]

the P515 piano sound as MIDI and not audio, please correct the confusion.

Yes, and then edit the midi to send back to P515 and then record the subsequent audio. I’m a keys player and I do this rather than mess about with audio editing. I also use logic. Which can indeed edit audio but getting the actual performance correct via midi (where you can) is far easier and not destructive.

Wonks (as usual) is spot on !

Ian

[Wonks]

Do you have an interface with MIDI hardware ports?

The P515 has MIDI in and out hardware ports (manual page 80). From what I can see in the manual, it only transmits/receives MIDI over hardware, not the USB connection, so if you want to record your performance as MIDI, rather than sound, you need either an interface that has MIDI hardware ports, or a separate MIDI-only interface.

If you don't have one, then whilst you can record a performance on the P515 as a MIDI 'song' you'll need to transfer it over to your computer on a USB drive (page 105). You can then bring it in to your DAW, edit it and export it back to a USB drive and load it onto the P515 again. You can then play the MIDI file and record the audio.

The basic MIDI notes you are recording are just notes. In the DAW you can select any instrument to play the MIDI back on (just check the MIDI channel settings are the same on the MIDI track and the instrument you've selected).

So if you have got hardware MIDI ports, you can record the performance direct into your DAW onto a MIDI track. To hear the track, you can send the MIDI back out to the P515 or direct it to a software piano in the DAW.

[muzines]

The P515 has MIDI in and out hardware ports (manual page 80). From what I can see in the manual, it only transmits/receives MIDI over hardware, not the USB connection, so if you want to record your performance as MIDI, rather than sound, you need either an interface that has MIDI hardware ports, or a separate MIDI-only interface.

What I gleaned from the documentation is that it can do both MIDI and Audio over USB, so no need for a MIDI interface, USB should be fine.

https://uk.yamaha.com/en/support/manual ... &c=&k=p515

Select "Computer-related Operations":
https://manual.yamaha.com/mi/common/com ... _w0_04.htm

[Wonks]

The P515 has MIDI in and out hardware ports (manual page 80). From what I can see in the manual, it only transmits/receives MIDI over hardware, not the USB connection, so if you want to record your performance as MIDI, rather than sound, you need either an interface that has MIDI hardware ports, or a separate MIDI-only interface.

What I gleaned from the documentation is that it can do both MIDI and Audio over USB, so no need for a MIDI interface, USB should be fine.

https://uk.yamaha.com/en/support/manual ... &c=&k=p515

Select "Computer-related Operations":
https://manual.yamaha.com/mi/common/com ... _w0_04.htm

The manual is as clear as mud on that. It may be the case, but in the manual, using MIDI refers you back to page 80, which only details hardware connections.

If the P515 transmits MIDI over USB, they should bloody well say so in the manual!

It costs nothing to give it a go, but I'd recommend the OP not trying to use the ASIO audio drivers if they are on a PC, as choosing the P515 as a USB audio source will stop them using their normal audio interface.

On a Mac, you'd need to create an aggregate device to record via the P515 USB link and still use the normal AI.

[muzines]

The manual is as clear as mud on that. It may be the case, but in the manual, using MIDI refers you back to page 80, which only details hardware connections.

If the P515 transmits MIDI over USB, they should bloody well say so in the manual!

Yep, it's a bit round the houses to find this information from the documentation. Basically, rather than print the USB stuff in the manual, it's a separate manual that applies to multiple products, and the manual refers to "For using this thing with a computer, see this document", to therefore not need to put all that stuff in the main manual...

[Sam Spoons]

Play the P515 whilst recording the MIDI output.

Then edit the MIDI to correct any mistakes or things you feel could be better.*

Then play back the MIDI through the P515 and record its audio output. You might need to drag the recorded audio slightly to make up for timing delays from the MIDI process if you are playing to a backing track.

*When editing the MIDI, it’s up to you whether you play it back through the P515 or through a software piano.

Wonks forgive me for my lack of production knowledge but I'm still not understanding your point.

I may be telling you stuff you already know so forgive me if that's the case but here is a simplified explanation of how midi works.

Midi, basically, transmits which key you played, how long you held it for and how hard you played it. The DAW or onboard sequencer can record that data and replay it later. The sounds you hear when you play can be the ones built into the piano, a VSTi in your computer or another midi sound module. Likewise when you replay a recorded performance over midi. The advantage of this is that, even with modern computers, midi editing has some advantages over audio editing. And, as you are not recording the actual sound, you can use any other available sound to replay the piece.

You mention to play the P515 whilst recording the MIDI output, but playing the P515 piano sound will result in recording audio not MIDI.

Playing the P515 will result in midi being output over either USB or the DIN midi output and that can be recorded. You could record the audio as well or just listen to the audio during your performance, your choice.

You then mention to play back the MIDI through the P515 and record its audio output, some what confused there.

Ignoring the DAW if you record a performance using the onboard sequencer/recorder when you replay that you can record the P515 audio in just the same way as you would if you were playing the piece live, the same applies if you record the midi into your DAW and replay it later (but this needs a bit more setting up to achieve)

Lastly when editing the MIDI, it’s up to me whether i play it back through the P515 or through a software piano, Mmm

See above, if you route the midi from the DAW to the P515 it will play the piece and you can record the audio from the piano, or you could use a VSTi piano installed in your computer/DAW.

Just to recap, my original intention was to record the on-board piano sound from the P515 and wanted to know what was the extent of editing that could be done with an audio recording, however it seems your response is saying I could record the P515 piano sound as MIDI and not audio, please correct the confusion.

You can record the audio from the piano and edit it using your DAW (and it will be fine) but recording the performance as midi and editing the midi gives you many more options and is how most of us on here would go about it.

HTH

[DigitalMusicProduction]

Error

[DigitalMusicProduction]

Whilst you can record a performance on the P515 as a MIDI 'song' you'll need to transfer it over to your computer on a USB drive (page 105). You can then bring it in to your DAW, edit it and export it back to a USB drive and load it onto the P515 again. You can then play the MIDI file and record the audio.

The basic MIDI notes you are recording are just notes. In the DAW you can select any instrument to play the MIDI back on (just check the MIDI channel settings are the same on the MIDI track and the instrument you've selected).

So if you have got hardware MIDI ports, you can record the performance direct into your DAW onto a MIDI track. To hear the track, you can send the MIDI back out to the P515 or direct it to a software piano in the DAW.

OK, I'm understanding it more clearly now, the P515 was a recent purchase so still working it out. Yes the P515 has the ability to record audio or MIDI, it has old school MIDI ports, USB-B port and USB flash drive port, I believe all 3 options are possible to transfer MIDI data from the P515 via a Mac in to Logic.

Am I therefore correct in saying it is possible to use the P515 piano sound as a MIDI recording directly in to Logic, then use a software piano to edit the MIDI then transfer it back to the P515 and record it as audio?

If that's the case could I still not use the P515 piano sound to edit the MIDI in Logic without having to switch to a software piano? I'm aware everything at this point is still MIDI until the edited MIDI is sent back to the P515 and recorded as audio,

Am i on the right path with all this?

[muzines]

Am I therefore correct in saying it is possible to use the P515 piano sound as a MIDI recording directly in to Logic, then use a software piano to edit the MIDI then transfer it back to the P515 and record it as audio?

You can play, record notes, and playback your MIDI notes to the external piano, in exactly the same way as playing a software instrument. You don't need to use a software piano as an intermediate step. The notes recorded via MIDI are indepedendent of the instrument - it could be a software instrument, or an external MIDI instrument - whatever. It's all basically the same.

You'll probably need to route the audio from your piano through Logic too.

For simplicity, I recommend creating a software instrument track in Logic, using the "External instrument" plugin on it. In that, you tell the plugin which MIDI port and channel the external hardware is on, and the audio inputs from it, and then your hardware piano behaves in exactly the same way as an internal software instrument.

[DigitalMusicProduction]

If the Yamaha P515 has the ability to record MIDI, I could just connect a cable from it's USB to Host port in to the Mac, open Logic, launch a MIDI track and begin recording MIDI using the piano sound from the P515, when all editing is done, how would I then send the MIDI recording back to the P515 to convert it to audio?

[Drew Stephenson]

That's what Muzines' post above explains. You're effectively using the piano as an external sound source for the midi that's now in your DAW.

[muzines]

If the Yamaha P515 has the ability to record MIDI, I could just connect a cable from it's USB to Host port in to the Mac, open Logic, launch a MIDI track and begin recording MIDI using the piano sound from the P515, when all editing is done, how would I then send the MIDI recording back to the P515 to convert it to audio?

If you'd set up the External Instrument as suggested, you'd see how it works.

The notes you play are immediately sent back out to the piano (make sure Local mode on the piano is "Off" to avoid doubled notes), just as when you press play in Logic, the MIDI notes are played to the piano, which plays, in exactly the same way as a software instrument receives MIDI notes and plays. This is common to all basic MIDI sequencing.

When you're finally ready to record the audio, just arm an audio track in the usual way, set to record from the inputs the piano's audio is coming in on.

[DigitalMusicProduction]

When you're finally ready to record the audio, just arm an audio track in the usual way, set to record from the inputs the piano's audio is coming in on.

Does that mean either to disconnect the MIDI cable set up in exchange for an audio cable set up, then in Logic select bounce MIDI to audio? Or simply switch from a MIDI to audio recording on the P515?

Thanks to everyone for your patience on this, I'm very new to this kind of system configuration set up.