DAC filter characteristics: BS or not?

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DAC filter characteristics: BS or not?

Post by Waltern8tor »

Apologies if I have wrong forum here, I wasn't quite sure where to ask this question...

A friend recently posted a question on Facebook regarding which filter setting he should use for his DAC of his music streamer.

I wasn't aware that such a thing as selectable filter characteristics for DAC even existed. I had assumed ( with my crude understanding of digital recording theory ) that the whole function of a DAC filter was to do with Nyquist theorem and Aliasing and eliminating undesirable artifacts entering the audible spectrum? If so why would you want to play around with filtering characteristics? Surely all of this takes part out of audible frequency spectrum (20Hz to 20kHz)

Or have I misunderstood this entirely? :crazy:

Link here to an article about this:
https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/blogs/ho ... r-your-dac
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Re: DAC filter characteristics: BS or not?

Post by SafeandSound Mastering »

I use a Crane Song Solaris Quantum DAC here and it has no user definable filtering (I am extremely pleased with it as is designed by the late Dave Hill).

A steeper filter should reduce aliasing more as it cuts highs more quickly and deeply, a less steep slope might affect the pass band less but risks slightly more aliasing.

If you can still hear to 20kHz you might have a stronger opinion on this I suspect, but in general it is a case of try them on a range of material you enjoy listening to and choose what you like best and that is about it. If all filters are working as per design I suspect the differences would be quite slight.

For pro devices I know of just the RME mastering grade DAC that gives filter choices most Pro dedicated DACS are fixed by the designers. I am sure there are others that give filter options.

Personally I rather like equipment that has been designed well and has fewer options and is fixed, reference equipment we could say. I am all very much for unchanging reference points. (That goes for EQ on monitors, seating position, filters etc. room changes.)

I imagine this is a case of bells and whistles for consumer devices.

Choice is no bad thing though as long as reliability is not affected.
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Re: DAC filter characteristics: BS or not?

Post by Waltern8tor »

Appreciate the response

Yes the original query was with regard to a Consumer device and I suspect you hit nail on the head regarding "bells and whistles"

Would in all honesty any of this be audible?
If it was shouldn't there be concern about what it is filtering below 20kHz? I don't understand how you could hear difference for anything above that unless I am misunderstanding how this works...

Question is more for my personal edification as I suffered from sudden hearing loss recently so I personally wouldn't pick up any differences myself as my hearing dives off over 4khz.
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Re: DAC filter characteristics: BS or not?

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

Waltern8tor wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:08 am I wasn't aware that such a thing as selectable filter characteristics for DAC even existed.

Yes, it does. Several D-A (and even some A-D) converter chip manufacturers offer different selectable filter characteristics, and some product manufacturers extend that selection capability to the end user.

If so why would you want to play around with filtering characteristics? Surely all of this takes part out of audible frequency spectrum (20Hz to 20kHz)

Yes, most of the options will impinge on the very top of the audio band.

The reasons for different filter characteristics is because they sound (slightly) different with different material (predominately material with a lot of energy at very high frequencies) and some listeners prefer different compromises to others.

In theory, the D-A reconstruction filter should have a brick wall response just below the Nyquist frequency (half the sample rate). So in a 44.1kHz system it should be flat up to 21 or 22kHz and offer upwards of 100dB attenuation at 22.05kHz (the Nyquist frequency) and above.

However, this is close to impossible and largely impractical to achieve in hardware.

Instead, the vast majority of standard converter filters are so-called 'half-band' filters. Although their response is flat up to 21 or 22kHz, they only manage 6dB of attenuation at the Nyquist frequency.

Manufacturers use this implementation because it's much easier to build in hardware and there's usually so little audio around the Nyquist frequency that the aliasing resulting from only 6dB of attenuation is negligible.... with most music. This kind of design is often called a 'fast' filter.

For those unhappy with this almost ubiquitous filter incarnation, one alternative filter response is to start the roll-off slightly earlier, to give a much better level of attenuation at the Nyquist frequency. This is often called a 'slow' filter.

Obviously, that approach will curtail the audible HF response around 20kHz very slightly, but remove aliasing artefacts with some material — and some people prefer that particular compromise.

Another issue addressed by different filter characteristics is the time domain response. The linear-phase filters traditionally employed preserve the phase relationships between harmonics across the audio bandwidth and allow incredibly steep filter cut-offs. These are good things. However, they also introduce pre-ringing artefacts which obviously can't happen in the natural causal world of acoustic sound. There is no pre-echo (pre-ringing) when someone hits a drum or plucks a guitar string!

Some people think they can hear this pre-ringing unnaturalness, so many converter chips now include one or more 'minimum-phase' filter options. These filter designs replicate analogue filters and have only (natural) post-ringing artefacts. Sadly, they also have much more gentle filter slopes, and consequently the compromises involve even greater HF roll-off, or more aliasing, or both.

In general, although a 44.1kHz digital system has a nominal 20kHz bandwidth, few people can hear sounds that high and so are willing to sacrifice a little of their inaudible HF extension to avoid audible aliasing or pre-ringing.

...and audiophiles love nothing more than tinkering with the settings and adjustments of their hi-fi equipment, convincing themselves they can hear improvements :lol:
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Re: DAC filter characteristics: BS or not?

Post by zenguitar »

Hugh Robjohns wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 10:07 am
...and audiophiles love nothing more than tinkering with the settings and adjustments of their hi-fi equipment, convincing themselves they can hear improvements :lol:

Just label it as the "confirmation Bias" facility.

Andy :beamup:
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Re: DAC filter characteristics: BS or not?

Post by Waltern8tor »

Thanks Hugh, I was hoping you might "chime in" (pre ringing artefact pun intended...sigh)
explained very well as always. :thumbup:

With my hearing, it sounds like slightly earlier roll off would be best option, if I'm ever given the choice.

I just had to sense check my own sanity here. Most what I could find from cursory search was Hifi related and I tend to take "information" from those websites with a grain of salt.
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Re: DAC filter characteristics: BS or not?

Post by Waltern8tor »

zenguitar wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 10:48 am
Just label it as the "confirmation Bias" facility.


Confirmation bias adjustment....even better! :lol:
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Re: DAC filter characteristics: BS or not?

Post by Philbo King »

If I recall correctly:

ADCs have an antialiasing filter.

DACs have a reconstruction filter.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_filter
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Re: DAC filter characteristics: BS or not?

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

Indeed. The reconstruction filter is sometimes called an anti-image filter.

The anti-alias and reconstruction filters have to do effectively the same thing in the same way and are often functionally identical.
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Re: DAC filter characteristics: BS or not?

Post by Waltern8tor »

So is there a preferred Filter design / selectable character for the DAC? Or are we saying they all have pros and cons and it's down to personal preference?
I guess in Pro Audio world the aim is for reference but HiFi Audiophile world aim is for preference ( to crudely simplify the design intent)? Just wondering what the benchmark is here.
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Re: DAC filter characteristics: BS or not?

Post by RichardT »

I think it’s really a personal preference!
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Re: DAC filter characteristics: BS or not?

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

They all have pros and cons at 44.1/48k. If you're offered a choice, go with personal preference... if you can hear any difference at all.

Move up to 96k and all the differences largely evaporate, with minimum phase filters arguably being the least compromised.
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