Neumann KH-series vs. Abacus C-series grudge match?!

[Mike Senior]

Hi all,

Over the past few years I've been carefully following the parallel development of the project-studio 2.1 monitoring systems from Neumann (ie. KH80/KH120 satellites with KH750 subwoofer) and Abacus Electronics (ie. C-Box3/C-Box4 satellites with C-Bass10 subwoofer) -- and it's proving to be a wild ride!

For instance, the C-Box4 is IMO the best pure mixing speaker on the market for under 1.5k/pair -- an incredible little two-way closed-box design that trades off overall volume for unbelievably detailed full-range (yes, really!) balancing performance. But, on the other hand, I've felt for a couple of years at least that the KH80+KH750 combination has remained unsurpassed as the most affordable 'no more monitoring excuses' professional mixing system for project-studio users -- basically, my go-to recommendation when anyone asks me over at Cambridge-MT what speakers to buy for mixing!

What's crazy, now, though, is that Abacus seem to be pushing their C-Series directly into a head-to-head conflict with Neumann's KH-series, launching a new C-Bass10 subwoofer and basically matching Neumann's KH80/KH120/KH750 European pricing with their CBox3/CBox4/CBass10. Furthermore, the sonics of BOTH ranges are phenomenal -- different in character and exact pros/cons, but equally tremendous from a mixing standpoint, if you ask me. Honestly, I've just finished reviewing the C-Box4/C-Bass10 2.1 system for my Cambridge-MT podcast, and found it incredibly difficult to come to a concrete conclusion about whether that setup should supplant the KH80/KH750 as my go-to recommendation. (You can have a listen to my review if you want -- it starts at around the 50-minute mark.)

Which brings me (finally!) to my actual question... has anyone else had the pleasure of comparing any of these Abacus and Neumann products against each other? Frankly, I'd really appreciate some second opinions on how other people feel they stack up relatively speaking. It just seems like some kind of audiophile grudge match at the moment -- although a rather positive one, I have to say, as we customers can only really stand to benefit from such fierce inter-manufacturer competition!

[Arpangel]

Thanks for bringing my attention to these Abacus monitors, I’m definitely going to check these out, especially at the price.

[Zukan]

Thanks for messing my day up.......decision, decisions.

[Drew Stephenson]

Do Abacus actually have a UK distributor?

[Mike Senior]

Do Abacus actually have a UK distributor?

It doesn't look like it. They currently sell direct to dealerships in Germany. But I'd personally pay for shipping of the C-Box 4s from them if I were shopping for a sub-1.5k full-range mixing system for a small studio (they're priced at 1.3k Euros) -- I just don't know of anything else like them.

If anyone here is a distributor snap them up quick!

[Mike Senior]

Thanks for messing my day up.......decision, decisions.

Apologies, Zukan -- if you've listened to that podcast, then you'll know I share your indecision!

[Zukan]

It's be great if someone, somewhere, could organise a demo. I'd love to hear them with the sub as the two come to around the 2.5K range....competing nicely with the Neumanns. They'd have to be special to pull me away fromthe Neumanns, but if you say they are epic then that's good enough for me.

[Hugh Robjohns]

He's saying they sound as good (albeit different) and cost the same.

So they are an alternative, rather than better.

But not easily available in the UK at present.

I don't think there's any benefit to (ex)changing an existing KH system for a C system, and since it's difficult to buy in the the UK at present it's not yet a strong alternative anyway.

Definitely one to watch though.

[Mike Senior]

He's saying they sound as good (albeit different) and cost the same.
So they are an alternative, rather than better.
But not easily available in the UK at present.
I don't think there's any benefit to (ex)changing an existing KH system for a C system, and since it's difficult to buy in the the UK at present it's not yet a strong alternative anyway.

100%. If you already have the KHs, then there'd be absolutely no sense in switching. However, if you don't have anything full-range yet and can't afford a KH 2.1 system, the C-Box 4 is a hot tip, and definitely worth checking out -- if you can actually get hold of it!

[tea for two]

I feel the most important feature of the CBoX4 by far
they are in colours aubergine, lemon, lime, orange

::

(You can have a listen to my review if you want -- it starts at around the 50-minute mark.)

I listened from around 50mins.
Wow down to 32Hz from such small monitors.

As you said in the podcast :
They are fast;
Clear;
Revealing upper mids;
Revealing even slightest plosives on vocals;
Low end balance on songs as Stormzy : Big for you boots, Finley Quaye : Even after all, Sarah Jarosz : Take me back;
If can't get pro mix on this then can't mix at all;
A small company CBox for project studios how far monitor design have progressed in the past few years to be able to stand shoulder to shoulder with Neumann, choice down to personal preference;
Would been nicer to have balance ports on the CBoX not unbalanced RCA.

::

So could we get away with minimal room treatment for the C-BoX4 and C-Bass10. How little would minimal bee : is this how long is a piece of string.

[Hugh Robjohns]

So could we get away with minimal room treatment for the C-BoX4 and C-Bass10.

Of course not! If you put low frequency energy into an enclosed space you're going to get resonant standing waves, and that means lumpy bass. The only way to prevent that is through effective LF acoustic control.

[tea for two]

Yeeeeah. My query should really been just for the C-Box4 without the sub C-Bass10.

[Mike Senior]

Yeeeeah. My query should really been just for the C-Box4 without the sub C-Bass10.

Even then, I'm afraid it's still what Hugh said: the room's an important factor whether you're monitoring quiet or loud.

And in condensing my 20-minute review down to 100 words, you've inevitably left a little nuance on the cutting-room floor, so I'd encourage anyone who's intrigued to go back to the source to avoid any misunderstandings about my verdict!

[tea for two]

For room reasons the Kali In-Unf ultra nearfield with desktop Bass unit is on my radar.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/kali-audio-in-unf

Sarah Jarosz : Take me back, on your listening evaluation is a wonderful song mixed ever so well.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MhOlK0YH- ... Fjaw%3D%3D

[Mike Senior]

For room reasons the Kali In-Unf ultra nearfield with desktop Bass unit is on my radar.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/kali-audio-in-unf

Looks like a very convenient package. I noticed that Paul White mentioned some bass overhang in his review, though, which would concern me a little for mixing purposes. Very attractive price for a full-range system, of course.

Sarah Jarosz : Take me back, on your listening evaluation is a wonderful song mixed ever so well.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MhOlK0YH- ... Fjaw%3D%3D

Thanks! (Not that I can take credit... It was the incredible Gary Paczosa at the controls for that record.) The guitar and vocal sounds in particular are to die for. I recently spent 18 months or so completely updating my own mix-referencing collection and documenting the whole process for my Cambridge-MT site patrons, and this was one of the tracks that made it through that long elimination process into my final 70-song list -- which is about the highest compliment I can give it!

The album it comes from, Undercurrent, was deservedly nominated for the Best Engineering Non-classical Grammy back in 2017, although it lost out to Bowie's final album Blackstar in the end. (In general if you're looking for potential mix references, the archives of that particular Grammy award are a gold mine.)

[Arpangel]

I feel the most important feature of the CBoX4 by far
they are in colours aubergine, lemon, lime, orange

::

If they aren’t available in black with water proof drivers I don’t want them.

[tea for two]

Sarah Jarosz : Take me back, on your listening evaluation is a wonderful song mixed ever so well.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MhOlK0YH- ... Fjaw%3D%3D

Thanks! (Not that I can take credit... It was the incredible Gary Paczosa at the controls for that record.) The guitar and vocal sounds in particular are to die for.

The album it comes from, Undercurrent, was deservedly nominated for the Best Engineering Non-classical Grammy back in 2017, although it lost out to Bowie's final album Blackstar in the end. (In general if you're looking for potential mix references, the archives of that particular Grammy award are a gold mine.)

Tru.
It is an art. Gary Paczosa putting his heart into it.
I wonder whether Zuke was a Grammy judge on this.

I recently spent 18 months or so completely updating my own mix-referencing collection and documenting the whole process for my Cambridge-MT site patrons

I listened to Finley on your reference list : even on utube I can pick oooot what the Kick, 2different Bass lines are doing from the start of the song on my elcheapo deejay headphones although somewhat muddily. No where near as clearly as I could have on LCD-X.

It is difficult going back to somewhat muddy monitors, somewhat muddy headphones after listening on clearer. It took me a little while to readjust to my K712 pro which are no slouch after auditioning LCD-X. I no longer have the K712, instead I have my K702 better for accuracy and stereo imaging I find even though they are Bass light, and my elcheapo deejay headphones are better for me for Bass.

You'd laugh if I told you which elcheapo deejay headphones elcheapo desktop sub n satellites I mix Bass on for my museek.
I would never use these to mix others.
For others I'd get firstly a properly acoustically sorted room trusting Idris Y Drag aka Studio Support Gnome, thereafter upto £2.5K on sub n satellites, also upto £1K on headphones.
It's because I know my museek inside ooot I can mix on elcheapo.

::

Listening on well loud sound systems I realised when the Kick and Bass are together layered on top of one another that's when they hit home the deepest.
As on Dinner Party : From my heart and my soul.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EL185N79Y ... 91bA%3D%3D

[tea for two]

I recently spent 18 months or so completely updating my own mix-referencing collection and documenting the whole process for

It's a testament to how far some mobile phone speakers have progressed that I can clearly distinguish the Kick and these Baselines on my phone speakers from utube.
I would never mix on my phone yet I check my mixes on my phone. I chose this particular phone Redmi Note10 pro over Samsung S10 I had, LG V50 I had, iPad pro 11 I have, because of its speakers.

https://www.patreon.com/posts/reference-of-1-33041129
"Finlay Quaye: 'Even After All' (0:59-1:42)

I'm going to start the ball rolling with one of my most go-to references for testing speaker systems or evaluating the monitoring in unfamiliar studios. What's brilliant about this track is that it's tremendously revealing of a monitoring system's low-frequency mixing capabilities.

In the first instance, the kick drum is very short and tight. In fact, if you zoom in on the waveform, you can actually see that the main body of each hit is only about 10-15ms long. The fact that it both starts and stops really quickly means that any trace of resonance or sluggishness in the monitoring will cause the kick sound to lose its compactness and punch -- a bit like you're using a softer beater and/or a less well-damped drum.

But the kick's only a part of what I'm listening for; it's the other bass instrument layers that really sort the sheep from the goats. The strongest low-frequency contributor is the simple two-note synth-bass line that alternates between 'A' and 'E' notes on the second eighth-note of every bar. This timbre is comprised of a fundamental frequency (55Hz and 41Hz respectively), a first harmonic (111Hz and 82Hz), and very little other energy besides. Like the kick drum, it's very tight in the time-domain, so again it quickly reveals any resonance problems at those frequencies.

In addition, though, there's a more sustained background bass line with a softer attack and decay. It sounds a bit like its played on some kind of upright bass or bass guitar -- it's not the main rhythmic riff part, but has quite a similar timbre. At the start of my reference snippet, this bass line just doubles the low synth's 'A' and 'E' notes (although with a characteristically plaintive little upper-mordent ornamentation),
So when I pull up this reference in any new monitoring situation, I'm listening for how well I can separate those two bass lines (and indeed the rhythmic riff bass part not far above them). The clearer and more independent those lines sound, and the clearer the differences between their amplitude envelope characteristics, the more confident I am that I'll be able to mix bass on that specific system."

[traverso]

Would the ability of the Neumann combo (KH 750 DSP + 2x KH 80 DSP) to be calibrated to sub par listening environments give it an edge for bedroom / small studio / untreated room use?

[Arpangel]

It's a testament to how far some mobile phone speakers have progressed that I can clearly distinguish the Kick and these Baselines on my phone speakers from utube.

It's a very very good speaker system that genuinely lets you hear and differentiate between different simultaneous bass sources.
Sometimes you can pick out the harmonics, but not the real fundamentals of what's going on.
I have 4ft high transmission line speakers, and even they can't come anywhere near real world bass extension, and levels, they sound OK, but not like you’re in the live room.
Small speakers, and computer stuff, may sound like they are doing the job, but it’s all wizardry, and it still takes a massive box, and lots of watts, to really do the business. The laws of physics.

[tea for two]

Small speakers, and computer stuff, may sound like they are doing the job, but it’s all wizardry, and it still takes a massive box, and lots of watts, to really do the business. The laws of physics.

Tru dat they do lots of software jiggery pokery.
I wouldn't mind just once listening to my stuff on a PMC QB1 XBD-A in a cathedral or proper room.

[Arpangel]

Small speakers, and computer stuff, may sound like they are doing the job, but it’s all wizardry, and it still takes a massive box, and lots of watts, to really do the business. The laws of physics.

Tru dat they do lots of software jiggery pokery.
I wouldn't mind just once listening to my stuff on a PMC QB1 XBD-A in a cathedral or proper room.

I love using my Macbook Air for recording away from home, when I listen on its built in speakers everything sounds f*****g wonderful, amazingly 3D, but it's very, very deceiving.
You have to completely ignore these speakers for anything other than casual listening, if it’s not plumed into an interface.

[Anakata]

I have been using for the last three years Abacus C3 Box and truly they were a tremendous upgrade from my previous monitors . My problem is that i get ear fatigue rapidly with them . Maybe is the fact that they have to be really close to maintain a stable image (around 1 meter) , so my ears are really close to them . The volume when i mix is around 65db .
My questions are if a sub woofer will "mellow" a little bit the speakers , making them more pleasant to hear and if the K80 are more forgiving on the ears .

[ajay_m]

A key question here though is to take advantage of these monitors, what practical steps do you have to take to acoustically treat an average room - take for example my attic studio which is a loft conversion with normal plaster walls, on a timber frame, so they are going to vibrate at low frequencies, and the main space is approximately, I'd guess about 3m x 3m plus the sloping roofline down one side so the actual floor area is probably 3m X 5m I'm guessing. Floor is carpeted.

Now there's no truly terrible issues like flutter echo but nonetheless sitting with a pair of 5 inch monitors about 50-odd cm away from me and with the listening position approximately centred between walls, so 1.5m away from each wall, it's necessary to dial in around a -5dB notch at 160Hz on the mixer, with a fairly low Q (can't remember exactly what it is but you're back to 0dB around 100Hz and 200Hz. Otherwise the sound is unpleasantly murky, which probably stems from the wavelength at 160Hz which I think is around 1.8m so we're getting reflections of the back wall reinforcing that frequency range as a primary node, I'd guess. After than undoubtedly as we move upward in frequency there are other resonant nodes but they are much less obvious, possibly because they are narrower and perhaps because the bookshelves at the rear and other bits and pieces are scattering the higher wavelengths more effectively.

If I stand with my back against the rear wall, then the monitors sound fantastic, with a much more extended bass response and no hint of the issues I hear close up. I previously had my old monitors on shelves on the front wall and these were rear ported which is not an ideal setup, but I don't recall having quite the same issues - haven't tried the new (front ported) monitors in that position, technically they are supposed to be nearfield monitors, but....
[and this might be because of course now the distance between the monitors and the rear wall would have been 3m which is now putting the main node at 80Hz and that's subjectively less unpleasant]

Now let's suppose someone in an average room like mine decides to lash out on a set of these high-end monitors. What would be the appropriate room treatment plan and how much would you budget for this situation?. I'm just curious because to be honest at present I tend to use headphones to get a final judgement on a mix and not rely on monitors at all, and this is for sure a LOT cheaper than getting the room treated - but, nonetheless, what would you recommend as a reasonable treatment plan and approximate cost, just out of curiosity?.

[Drew Stephenson]

As ajay says, what's your room treatment like? Adding a sub to an under treated room might, at best, just swap one set of problems for another.

Hopefully Mike Senior will be along in a bit to answer your question about the direct comparison as he's listened to both quite a lot.