Korg Keystage 49 & 61 MIDI 2.0 MPE Poly-AT controllers - ASM licensed

[t-sun]

B&H leaked this new set of keyboard controllers from Korg, they look seriously impressive:

MIDI 2.0 Property Exchange for unparalleled integration and control
New keybed design with Polyphonic / Channel Aftertouch and MPE compatibility
Powerful arpeggiator, chord modes, and streamlined workflow
Parameter-dedicated OLED screens for instant visual feedback
Integrated audio interface with direct stereo output for live performances
Lightweight and portable
Official Ableton Live integration
Includes Korg Gadget Producer Bundle, wavestate native LE, and Ableton Live 11 Lite

They licensed ASM's PolyTouch polyphonic aftertouch keybed tech, hopefully they also took inspiration from ASM's build quality as compared to some of their less than robust synth keyboards from the last few years. Is this the first big name MIDI 2.0 controller?




It's interesting that they decided to just license from ASM rather than Fatar or going it on their own. Fatar tends to be pricier, so maybe they went with ASM to keep costs down. Korg Keystage 49 will cost $599,99, and the Keystage 61 $699,99. If you wanted the ASM keybed with more than 49 keys but don't want to drop the cash on the HS Deluxe, I guess we've got options.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Brilliant news. The ASM keyboard feels good and works well.

I've not seen, let alone tried, the Fatar polyphonic AT keybed — I think it's only used on the Walford Iridium so far. And although Behinger have promised a polyAT keyboard on lots of forthcoming models, I dont think any are actually available yet (happy to be corrected on that).

But new 4 and 5-octave polyAT controller keyboards from Korg are very interesting indeed.

[muzines]

Good price point too - I think they might shift a lot of these...

[t-sun]

One odd thing about this that sprung to mind: Didn't Korg just announce a $2000 61-key wavestate SE with channel aftertouch using their own keybed? With this including the wavestate LE software (and the wavestate being a Raspberry Pi running that software), this just seems like the better option for a fraction of the price.

I haven't played with a modern Korg workstation keyboard that they compare the SE to, are they comparable to the ASM keybed? I need to play around with my HS Explorer and the wavestate software.

[tea for two]

Strewth at those prices I might as well pick up a Hydrasynth Explorer with its mini keys.
Or the new Keith McMillen K-Board with MPE and PolyAT in Lime Green to carry around in the dark

[ro5]

Did Korg bother fixing their USB driver or do they still expect us to use less than 10 USB devices?

I promised myself not to buy anything from Korg until they do so… regardless how great this new keybed is….

It’s a shame they have not addressed this while it’s relatively easy to fix by using the correct libraries…. Shame on you Korg!

[resistorman]

Strewth at those prices I might as well pick up a Hydrasynth Explorer with its mini keys.
Or the new Keith McMillen K-Board with MPE and PolyAT in Lime Green to carry around in the dark

I can tell you that the McMillen K-Board is a sad toy and has no software support, though it's desperately needed. Mine was fucia.

[tea for two]

Strewth at those prices I might as well pick up a Hydrasynth Explorer with its mini keys.
Or the new Keith McMillen K-Board with MPE and PolyAT in Lime Green to carry around in the dark

I can tell you that the McMillen K-Board is a sad toy and has no software support, though it's desperately needed. Mine was fucia.

Did it glow in the dark though.

I had the rev1 K-Board. It's best feature for me was Togl : could run sequences, chords, by pressing Togl then pressing any key to turn it on : as many keys as on the K-Board. Pressing a turned on key would then turn it off.

[Scoox]

How does the Hydrasynth keybed feel compared to a non-poly-AT keybed anyway? I read a customer review that said it didn't feel all that great but you never know because keybed feel some times is a personal thing. I've played keys some people dissed and I though they were great.

Re. MIDI 2.0 integration, I'm still a little sceptical about how well this is going to fare. We've had MCU for ages and there are still DAWs that haven't managed to get it right or have half-assed it. If a new MIDI 2.0 controller is released with a different hardware configuration (of which there are infinite possibilities), even if the device can inform the host of its hardware capabilities, that doesn't mean the host will automatically know what to do about it: It will still require someone to develop support specifically for this device, and each DAW will, yet again, do it in a different way.

The higher than 7-bit resolution is welcome though, especially for parameters that currently are audibly granular, such as wide-range pitch bending and filter sweeps.

[Scoox]

Did Korg bother fixing their USB driver or do they still expect us to use less than 10 USB devices?

I promised myself not to buy anything from Korg until they do so… regardless how great this new keybed is….

It’s a shame they have not addressed this while it’s relatively easy to fix by using the correct libraries…. Shame on you Korg!

I assume you are a Windows user, as am I. Microsoft is currently revamping the whole MIDI side of things in Windows, that includes native multi-client generic MIDI drivers. IIRC this was scheduled to be released in 2024. Once that's done we will not need a driver for each device just to get multi-client.

[Folderol]

The risk I see with MIDI-2 is that manufacturers and software houses are likely to pair up to effectively create walled gardens simply by not releasing the full details of their protocol, so those outside only get the fallback state of MIDI-1.

I was unfortunately the victim of this sort of thing even with MIDI-1 a while back, with the Panorama T6 keyboard. This didn't even have complete standard capabilities until you downloaded firmware via proprietary software from a windows machine - not even SysEx!

Oh, and if you want to change the control functions, you can't do that from the keyboard, you again need that Windows software.

This is one thing that the Behringer BCF2000 got absolutely right. Everything can be done on the unit.

[Arpangel]

They do look good, just what I’m looking for, but £699 for the 61 is a bit pricey.

[Scoox]

The risk I see with MIDI-2 is that manufacturers and software houses are likely to pair up to effectively create walled gardens simply by not releasing the full details of their protocol, so those outside only get the fallback state of MIDI-1.

I was unfortunately the victim of this sort of thing even with MIDI-1 a while back, with the Panorama T6 keyboard. This didn't even have complete standard capabilities until you downloaded firmware via proprietary software from a windows machine - not even SysEx!

Oh, and if you want to change the control functions, you can't do that from the keyboard, you again need that Windows software.

This is one thing that the Behringer BCF2000 got absolutely right. Everything can be done on the unit.

Yes, exactly.

Regarding the BCF and the BCR, indeed, you can configure all the important stuff directly from the unit. There was a lot more functionality under the hood though, which the official software editor didn't expose, but there is a third-party editor that exposes everything. I have no idea how the author manage to reverse-engineer it, maybe Behringer has internal documentation they only release to developers and he got a copy. The BCR and the BCF are probably the most programmable MIDI controllers ever made.

[Scoox]

They do look good, just what I’m looking for, but £699 for the 61 is a bit pricey.

The Komplete Kontrol S61 mk3 is £749. In terms of value I think the S61 mk3 offers more (light guide, big LCD, aluminium endless encoders, performance strip, etc) but the price you pay is that you are locked into NI's proprietary ecosystems. It probably should sell for more but they sell it a little cheaper hoping people will buy their other products. Like when you buy a laser printer for ridiculously little money and the toner costs half the price of the printer. A generic MIDI 2.0 controller means there is no ecosystem so it probably offers less but you have freedom to use it however you like.

The Korg controller is also a little smaller which I prefer. We'll have to wait for reviews to see how well it works.

In any case, poly AT is just beginning to take off, so don't buy anything just yet. I'm sure other major manufacturers, such as Roland, Behringer and Novation, will announce their own poly AT keyboards in the next year. Poly AT is happening.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Poly AT is happening.

It happened way back in 1977 with the CS80. It's just taken until now for the rest of the planet to catch on (with a few isolated brave efforts along the way).

[MarkOne]

Poly AT is happening.

It happened way back in 1977 with the CS80. It's just taken until now for the rest of the planet to catch on (with a few isolated brave efforts along the way).

We'll see.

Channel Aftertouch was pretty much ubiquitous on everything for years but in recent years the likes of Roland Yamaha and Korg now reserve that feature for only their flagship products.

[ajay_m]

Strewth at those prices I might as well pick up a Hydrasynth Explorer with its mini keys.
Or the new Keith McMillen K-Board with MPE and PolyAT in Lime Green to carry around in the dark

I can tell you that the McMillen K-Board is a sad toy and has no software support, though it's desperately needed. Mine was fucia.

The K-Board and Qunexus are unfortunate examples of great hardware let down by indifferent firmware.
If you run Reaper you can resolve all their limitations using a plugin I wrote, at which point the underlying hardware is actually pretty amazing, but KMI certainly didn't do a great job with the firmware. My favourite 'feature' was the pitch bend range where the developer I think didn't realise that pitch bend is a 14 bit precision value and just chopped back the values so that with a range of 2, most of the precision was lost. No wonder people were disappointed, apart from the wildly varying key to key sensitivity.
However these devices will send raw sensor data when sent a Sysex message and if you process this you can turn them into wonderful little keyboards. Unfortunately reaper only at this stage unless someone wants to take my code and turn it into a VST or something.

[Scoox]

Poly AT is happening.

It happened way back in 1977 with the CS80. It's just taken until now for the rest of the planet to catch on (with a few isolated brave efforts along the way).

Of course, but I meant that as in "it going mainstream" and every synth, controller and software manufacturer being on the same page. MIDI has supported key pressure for a long time but few manufacturers have actually implemented it and, to my knowledge, the NI Komplete Kontrol S49/61/88 mk3 is the first MIDI keyboard controller with full-size keys (i.e. not a synth) to implement this. I think NI's move has been the catalyst to get the wheels turning. Now Korg has taken heed, other manufacturers are likely to follow suit because they won't want to fall behind, and then it'll be unstoppable, like climate change, or the new standard, like air conditioning in cars.

[resistorman]

Strewth at those prices I might as well pick up a Hydrasynth Explorer with its mini keys.
Or the new Keith McMillen K-Board with MPE and PolyAT in Lime Green to carry around in the dark

I can tell you that the McMillen K-Board is a sad toy and has no software support, though it's desperately needed. Mine was fucia.

The K-Board and Qunexus are unfortunate examples of great hardware let down by indifferent firmware.
If you run Reaper you can resolve all their limitations using a plugin I wrote, at which point the underlying hardware is actually pretty amazing, but KMI certainly didn't do a great job with the firmware. My favourite 'feature' was the pitch bend range where the developer I think didn't realise that pitch bend is a 14 bit precision value and just chopped back the values so that with a range of 2, most of the precision was lost. No wonder people were disappointed, apart from the wildly varying key to key sensitivity.
However these devices will send raw sensor data when sent a Sysex message and if you process this you can turn them into wonderful little keyboards. Unfortunately reaper only at this stage unless someone wants to take my code and turn it into a VST or something.

Sounds interesting! Where can I get this plugin? My K-board hasn't sold yet.

[Arpangel]

I’d be prepared to pay a reasonable amount for one of these, if the keyboard was good, the most important thing for me, I’m not interested in AT or ribbons or anything like that, just a good high quality keyboard, a couple of knobs, PB/MOD wheels, and a sturdy build.

[Scoox]

I’d be prepared to pay a reasonable amount for one of these, if the keyboard was good, the most important thing for me, I’m not interested in AT or ribbons or anything like that, just a good high quality keyboard, a couple of knobs, PB/MOD wheels, and a sturdy build.

I think there is a market for something like this: www.extradeluxemfg.com Sadly, they don't seem to be making it anymore, but IMO it is almost perfect. Minimalist, quality, and timeless.

[Arpangel]

I’d be prepared to pay a reasonable amount for one of these, if the keyboard was good, the most important thing for me, I’m not interested in AT or ribbons or anything like that, just a good high quality keyboard, a couple of knobs, PB/MOD wheels, and a sturdy build.

I think there is a market for something like this: www.extradeluxemfg.com Sadly, they don't seem to be making it anymore, but IMO it is almost perfect. Minimalist, quality, and timeless.

Thanks, that is perfect!
You get the option to buy it, but it’s not in stock.

[Scoox]

Yes, it has been out of stock for years now. I have just sent them an email to ask if there are any plans to continue making this controller. If they used the new Fatar poly AT keybed, I think it would be a very popular product.

[ajay_m]

Sounds interesting! Where can I get this plugin? My K-board hasn't sold yet.

Just google 'qunexus unleashed' and it'll take you to the Reaper Stash. The plugin works with both the KBoard and the Qunexus. It does not affect your standard firmware or settings. Documentation is included in the download.

What it does:-

Equalises all keys to provide an even velocity and pressure response. The internal pressure sensors have up to a 3:1 variation between sensors, and the standard firmware is pretty hopeless at compensating for this.
[I have been told that later units get calibrated using a pressure roller which may make them better; my two units are very early off the production line]

Supports two-dimensional gestures to control pitch and modulation on every key. Yes, you can wiggle the keys sideways to add modulation and yes, you can tilt the keys as well and yes, the algorithms used actually work; there's a little bit of technique in learning to 'roll' your finger over the key (see the documentation), but, hey, it's an instrument, like the violin, you gotta control it!.

Supports sophisticated pressure envelopes, polyphonic AT, portamento (you can do this with glissando as the white notes are all next to each other, so the software figures out your intention and lets you use them as a kind of 'ribbon controller' for big controllable pitchbends.)

Supports min/max velocity thresholds to make playing wide dynamic range instruments like piano much more controllable.

Supports a bias threshold so that you can, for instance, bring in a rotary speaker effect on an organ patch by using key pressure.

Allows the pitchbend nub to control both pitch and modulation simultaneously

This has turned my pair of qunexii into genuinely useful little keyboards which are unique control surfaces. There is nothing like them, especially the KBoard, for the price, and it's such a shame that KMI compromised excellent hardware with some very mediocre firmware. Still, they were lovely when I discussed some of the shortcomings and shared the SysEx messages that allow raw sensor data to be transmitted. Using this it was possible to overcome all of the limitations of the units, with the other advantage that because this now works as a plugin in Reaper, you can store the entire configuration of how you want the keyboard to respond in the project, thus matching the keyboard's response to the instrument you are controlling.

[The Elf]

It's nice to see Korg getting on board with ANY form of aftertouch. Now they may be in the vanguard of MIDI 2. Good to see this.