Levelling the volume on two vocal tracks in Reaper

[nightofjoy]

Hi.

Finally got my remote co-host to get an external mic for his laptop when we're recording our podcast.

We did our latest episode tonight, and it made a real difference. In fact it actually went too far the other way and his track is now much louder than mine.

So I edit in Reaper, and I know I'm looking for a plugin which can level-out the two tracks to match each other in volume, but I don't know what the plugin is called, where to find it or how to use it.

Can someone quickly just go over the basics or point me towards a video?

Thanks.

[James Perrett]

Have you installed the SWS extensions? If you haven't then go to the Reaper site and get hold of them because they add some useful functions to Reaper.

One of those functions is Loudness. You can highlight all the items that you want to match, go to Extensions->Loudness and then click the analyse selected items button. You can then right click on the loudness information and choose Normalize... This will bring up a dialogue box where you can set the level that you want. I would suggest bringing the louder one down to the level of the quieter one so use the lower number in the Integrated column.

While a quick method like this may not be the absolute ideal solution, it will get you very close in just a few seconds. You may also want to experiment with compression if the voices are very dynamic and maybe a bit of limiting if you need to bring the level up but I wouldn't go overboard on processing.

[Drew Stephenson]

You can normalise to loudness levels in Reaper too. So if you're happy with the level of your contribution, use that as a baseline (mute the other participant and do a dry run render to get a loudness figure if you don't have a meter plugin that does it already), then right click on the track from your contributor and then normalise that but using the loudness option and set to the same level as your content.

[Wonks]

If the volume of your friend’s vocal isn’t varying too much in level, you could simply pull that track’s fader down.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I know it's a bit of an old-fashioned idea in a world where plugins can do everything... but have you considered using a combination of ears and faders?

[nightofjoy]

Have you installed the SWS extensions? If you haven't then go to the Reaper site and get hold of them because they add some useful functions to Reaper.

One of those functions is Loudness. You can highlight all the items that you want to match, go to Extensions->Loudness and then click the analyse selected items button. You can then right click on the loudness information and choose Normalize... This will bring up a dialogue box where you can set the level that you want. I would suggest bringing the louder one down to the level of the quieter one so use the lower number in the Integrated column.

While a quick method like this may not be the absolute ideal solution, it will get you very close in just a few seconds. You may also want to experiment with compression if the voices are very dynamic and maybe a bit of limiting if you need to bring the level up but I wouldn't go overboard on processing.

Just got my hands on the SWS package, will definitely try this later - thanks!

[nightofjoy]

If the volume of your friend’s vocal isn’t varying too much in level, you could simply pull that track’s fader down.

Yeah, I did that last night, brought his down and mine up a fraction, but wondered if there was a better approach.

There's still a lot of crazy fluctuations and peaks in both our tracks, so that needs addressing too.

In the past, I've been cutting either side of a peak, pulling the fader down on it a little, then glueing the track back together, but as you can imagine, that takes AGES.

[Wonks]

It's exactly the same effect as normalising, though one is automatic.

[Drew Stephenson]

It's exactly the same effect as normalising, though one is automatic.

I assume you're talking about pulling the fader down. Cutting peaks and pulling them down is more like compression than normalisation.

Back to the OP, Reaper has a setting to automatically apply a cross fade when splitting a track, have you got this enabled? It speeds up that approach hugely.

But if you're really just pulling down peaks then consider something like Gclip if you're on a PC. Really simple and transparent way of bringing down transients.

[The Red Bladder]

I know it's a bit of an old-fashioned idea in a world where plugins can do everything... but have you considered using a combination of ears and faders?

Brilliant!

[Wonks]

It's exactly the same effect as normalising, though one is automatic.

I assume you're talking about pulling the fader down. Cutting peaks and pulling them down is more like compression than normalisation.

Changing the overall track level is just what normalisation does, as does moving the fader. I didn’t mention lowering the peaks. You’ve done that yourself in your head.

[Matt Houghton]

go to Extensions->Loudness and then click the analyse selected items button. You can then right click on the loudness information and choose Normalize... This will bring up a dialogue box where you can set the level that you want. I would suggest bringing the louder one down to the level of the quieter one so use the lower number in the Integrated column.

An alternative approach is just to select the items, go to the Actions menu (Shortcut: Shift-? on my setup, not sure if that's the default) and type "LUFS" in the search filter. You'll find three normalisation options there — normalise items or normalise tracks to -23 LUFS. Those are SWS extensions. The other (not an SWS thing IIRC) involves a dialogue box (so fiddlier) but normalises the selected items to a user specified value for RMS-I, peak, True Peak, or LUFS-I, or maximum LUFS-S or LUFS-M. You can assign any of these actions to a shortcut key or mouse modifier if you plan on doing this a lot.

I suggest for dialogue starting with LUFS-I. -23 works fine, but whatever figure you pick, be consistent and set any dynamics processors so that their thresholds and standard settings work pretty well with that level of signal off the bat. If the whole thing ends up being too quiet, don't worry about it — you can make up for that at the master bus with the fader or a limiter.

But... (a) as Hugh says, faders and ears (and if you need meters) also work well! And (b) note that some of the remote recording services should already match levels pretty well for you before you download to your DAW...

[ajay_m]

well... yes, but there may also be an issue where one presenter is further away from the mic and there is noticeably more 'room ambience', which the human brain tends to interpret, understandably, as the presenter being 'further away'. So if the other source is much more intimate there's a disconcerting switch between virtual acoustic spaces, likely to be made worse if the more ambient vocals are boosted to equalise the volume levels.
Ideally in that scenario you want to look at getting the recording ambience consistent between the presenters at source.
It *might* be possible to fiddle around with a very short tail reverb to move one of the presenters to be further away in the perceived acoustic space perhaps, I've never really tried to do this, but having worked with training material I can attest to how disconcerting it is for the listener if the acoustic space switches abruptly with the presenter.

[Matt Houghton]

True. I was assuming a relatively acceptable sound. OTOH, if using computer based remote recording software, while the rooms will sound different, usually the distance of person to mic doesn't vary too much (unless someone's using a headset/lav mic). But if one part's really ambient and the other bone dry it will sound horrible anyway! The answer is to make better recordings, or use de-reverb processing in post. There are great tools for tackling ambience now — DeRoom Pro, Clarity vxDeReverb, Descript etc. These tools are superb (DeRoom Pro is my favourite for this, but the lite version of DeReverb will do a decent job on most dialogue). If you don't want to make both parts bone dry but to reduce the difference, you can even copy the reverb off one part and put (some of) it on the other with like Chameleon and it's pretty convincing. Kinda depends on the aesthetic you're going for and what level of artefacts are acceptable, but it's not hard to get acceptable, fairly dry podcasting results with such tools now. They've come a long way in the last couple of years.

[Drew Stephenson]

I didn’t mention lowering the peaks. You’ve done that yourself in your head.

Er, no. The OP mentioned it in the last sentence of the post you replied to. Hence my clarification.

"In the past, I've been cutting either side of a peak, pulling the fader down on it a little, then glueing the track back together, but as you can imagine, that takes AGES."

[Wonks]

I didn’t mention lowering the peaks. You’ve done that yourself in your head.

Er, no. The OP mentioned it in the last sentence of the post you replied to. Hence my clarification.

"In the past, I've been cutting either side of a peak, pulling the fader down on it a little, then glueing the track back together, but as you can imagine, that takes AGES."

Cross posting I think. I was replying to an earlier post, that post by the OP seems to have appeared before mine, though it either wasn’t there when I was writing/posting or else I didn’t get notification there was another post.

[shufflebeat]

…have you considered using a combination of ears and faders?

I wondered what they were for.

In the past, I've been cutting either side of a peak, pulling the fader down on it a little, then glueing the track back together, but as you can imagine, that takes AGES.

I’ve set up a little custom action (happy to share) which I use to speed up automation which inserts four envelope points on the “volume” envelope (select track, press V) at time selection, resulting in a little handle I can grab and subdue some enthusiastic content.

Select your problem audio
Display envelope (press V)
Click envelope to select
Apply shortcut -creates 4 points
Grab envelope in time selection and attentuate to taste.

[Zukan]

*cough* sidechain comp/expand *cough*

[nightofjoy]

Have you installed the SWS extensions? If you haven't then go to the Reaper site and get hold of them because they add some useful functions to Reaper.

One of those functions is Loudness. You can highlight all the items that you want to match, go to Extensions->Loudness and then click the analyse selected items button. You can then right click on the loudness information and choose Normalize... This will bring up a dialogue box where you can set the level that you want. I would suggest bringing the louder one down to the level of the quieter one so use the lower number in the Integrated column.

While a quick method like this may not be the absolute ideal solution, it will get you very close in just a few seconds. You may also want to experiment with compression if the voices are very dynamic and maybe a bit of limiting if you need to bring the level up but I wouldn't go overboard on processing.

Hi.

How do I get to EXTENSIONS>LOUDNESS...I'm on a mac and Extensions isn't one of my top bar menu fields... thanks.

[nightofjoy]

It's exactly the same effect as normalising, though one is automatic.

I assume you're talking about pulling the fader down. Cutting peaks and pulling them down is more like compression than normalisation.

Back to the OP, Reaper has a setting to automatically apply a cross fade when splitting a track, have you got this enabled? It speeds up that approach hugely.

But if you're really just pulling down peaks then consider something like Gclip if you're on a PC. Really simple and transparent way of bringing down transients.

So where I find a huge peak, I make a cut either side of that peak, then pull the fader down on the isolated peak section, then glue it back into the track.

I know it isn't the correct way of doing it, and when I do it a lot, it makes the audio sound a little choppy, because of course, I've not only lowered the peak, but a fraction of audio either side of the peak, and lowered that too, so when it's back in line with the rest of the track, it causes a very slight jump.

If there was a way of just bringing down the actual tops of any peaks across the whole track, that would be ideal.

Also, links to any video tutorials on this stuff would be really helpful, my brain is starting to feel a little fried!

Thanks.

[Matt Houghton]

If there was a way of just bringing down the actual tops of any peaks across the whole track, that would be ideal.

This is what a peak limiter is for — a processor that brings down any signal that goes over the threshold. A limiter is just a compressor with a very high ratio.

But you still want to get the two parts in the same ball park loudness-wise before you start doing stuff like that. That's where either meters and ears or LUFS normalisation (or, actually, all the above) come into play.

If you find you're knocking more than a few dB off with a limiter, it's a sign the audio is too loud in the first place — just use clip gain (or loudness normalisation) to bring it down a bit more until you're not knocking so much off the peaks.

(I'm assuming this is dialogue here, not sung vocal parts? For the latter there's a whole world of compression and parallel processing to learn that I wouldn't dream of suggesting for dialogue...)

[James Perrett]

How do I get to EXTENSIONS>LOUDNESS...I'm on a mac and Extensions isn't one of my top bar menu fields... thanks.

You need to install the extensions first. I'm not a Mac user but here's a video from a normally reputable source that should show you how to do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDwmqJYJq9s

Hope that helps.

[shufflebeat]

…it makes the audio sound a little choppy, because of course, I've not only lowered the peak, but a fraction of audio either side of the peak, and lowered that too, so when it's back in line with the rest of the track, it causes a very slight jump.

If there was a way of just bringing down the actual tops of any peaks across the whole track, that would be ideal.

To do this in automation just apply three (rather than my previously suggested four) envelope point onto the volume envelope and drag the centre point down where the peak shows on the waveform. You’ll end up with a rapid fade out/in that’s adjustable to taste.

The other answer, as mentioned by others, is any number of compressor/peak limiter units that will do the job automatically, although the result should be checked as one setting isn’t always appropriate for the whole track and adjustments may be necessary, which can also be automated with the envelope system.

[nightofjoy]

OK this has all blown my mind. Far too much information for my poor brain to take in. I'll have to try to sift through it all for the next episode, no time to do anything this time, need to get my episode out.

Quick question, if I use a levelator type thing called Auphonic, at the end of the edit, do I use that on just the dialogue tracks alone, or on the final master with all music and effects?

Thanks.

[Drew Stephenson]

Looking at the brief description on the site, I think you could use it on both the individual tracks and, if necessary, on the masterbus as well - though hopefully it wouldn't need to be doing very much on that.
EDIT
Try it and see but I'd recommend using on a loudness setting on the individual channels (it should then be easy to balance the different channels by ear) and then a true peak setting on the masterbus just to catch anything that has snuck through.