Surround monitoring- do any HDMI extractors actually work?

[Tomás Mulcahy]

I want to keep up with how surround mixing is done on current productions. To acheive that I want to use an old but good Pioneer surround receiver for streaming Netflix, Disney+, Youtube etc. from a Google Chromecast to my surround speaker rig. I have a separate rig in the studio, much simpler, it's 6 discrete audio channels on the audio interface.

I've tried 5 different HDMI audio extractors and none of them work with streaming services! Have been on the Netflix support but they don't have a clue. The Dolby spec states Atmos is backwards compatible. I did get Disney+ to work with the cheapest HDMI audio extractor, but none of the others.

So does anyone know if any HDMI audio extractors actually work? I've searched on various AV forums but they're all using modern receivers with a dedicated HDMI input. Those internal extractors seem to work fine?!?

[Drew Stephenson]

Is the output codec definitely compatible with the input on the old pioneer?

[Tomás Mulcahy]

I can't find a definitive answer. The Dolby spec states their atmos codec is backwards compatible with their original 5.1 codec. And the cheapest box does work in surround with Disney+ (the Amazon Basics box does not). I was on to tech support with two of the box makers, we went through a bunch of settings, and they never mentioned codec compatibility as an issue.

I can't find anything useful on forums either. Seems like no one really knows, and few if any people are using an old recevier like this.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

It's possible that the Samsung TV is causing an issue. There's this thing called ARC that I don't really understand!

I've tried taking optical out of the TV, but it is only allowing PCM not Dolby even when Chromecast is set to Dolby only. Netflix picks up on that, but it is not getting through to the TV.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

I tried the Samsung TV with surround via HDMI from the Chromecast, and the Pioneer DVD/ SACD player. It does not see the surround signal either.

[Drew Stephenson]

It does sound like the TV is doing its own thing in there somewhere unfortunately.

[jimjazzdad]

If God had meant us to listen to surround sound, he/she would have placed ears all around our skulls and one in the middle of the forehead!
I think that, next to networked printers, multi-channel AV receivers are some of the most non-intuitive, confounding and hateful of all consumer electronic devices. But that may be just my ineptitude

[Wonks]

It's possible that the Samsung TV is causing an issue. There's this thing called ARC that I don't really understand!

ARC is a ‘standard’ that allows audio signals to pass between equipment from different manufacturers on an HDMI cable.

I have a Virgin cable box, a Sony TV, a Firestick and an LG Blueray player/5.1 surround amp. With the previous LG player, I could only get stereo (or maybe 2.1) sound from the telly via an optical link. Nothing at all over just the HDMI cable. The Sony TV required a Sony 5.1 receiver to do that. I had 5.1 when playing Blueray/DVD but anything else plugged into the TV played as stereo.

Both the Sony TV and LG player have their own proprietary audio linking software systems, but they don’t work together.

So I swapped to an LG 5.1 player with ARC. Now, turning on the TV first lets the TV send (after maybe 30 seconds) a ‘wake up’ signal to the LG unit, which 4 out of 5 times then turns on in ARC mode and I get sound from the TV. The other time it wakes up in optical input mode, and I get no sound. This then involves switching the LG unit off, then switching the TV to internal speaker mode (if it hasn’t already reverted to that) and then back to digital output sound mode, which then re-awakes the LG box and then that comes up in ARC mode. Once in ARC mode, the sound is then 100% solid.

So it works, but the initial handshaking is a bit frail and could easily be made more robust IMO. I can’t switch the LG box into ARC mode on its own, so it needs the handshake procedure to switch. But it’s obviously a ‘standard’ that is implemented slightly differently by different manufacturers, so is slightly imperfect.

[Hugh Robjohns]

ARC is short for Audio Return Channel.

HDMI cables pass video in one direction, but the ARC is essentially a second digital audio path within the HDMI cable running in the reverse direction, with the aim of simplifying connections.

For example, you could connect a Bluray player and a games console via HDMI to a receiver amp, and then take the amp's HDMI out to the TV. Selecting different sources on the receiver amp routes the corresponding video to the TV.

To watchband hear broadcast TV etc, the TV's internal sound from its tuner is passed back to the receiver via the ARC channel.

HDMI is slightly complicated by evolving specifications over different versions, but any above v1.4 should be able to pass stereo and encoded dobley ac3 5.1 channel audio directly and via the ARC path.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

Thank you folks! That's all very helpful info.

So it works, but the initial handshaking is a bit frail and could easily be made more robust IMO. I can’t switch the LG box into ARC mode on its own, so it needs the handshake procedure to switch. But it’s obviously a ‘standard’ that is implemented slightly differently by different manufacturers, so is slightly imperfect.

I think you've hit on the problem. I can get the Mac to see 6 audio channels if I disconnect the Samsung TV. But as soon as I coonect the HDMI out to the Samsung, it "takes over" and the Mac only sees it as the audio destination. Two channels only. The Samsung has the Dolby option grayed out no matter what I try. I am going to try an extractor that has an ARC on/ off switch. Can also try a projector, which I assume would not be so "bossy" about being the audio destination?

[Tomás Mulcahy]

Got this sorted by changing to a TV that does pass through the signal. Working great now. 5.1 even with my hodge podge of speakers is great! Wifey is hooked, even expressed an interest it installing Atmos. "Ceiling? That sounds amazing"!!!

[Aled Hughes]

If God had meant us to listen to surround sound, he/she would have placed ears all around our skulls and one in the middle of the forehead!
I think that, next to networked printers, multi-channel AV receivers are some of the most non-intuitive, confounding and hateful of all consumer electronic devices. But that may be just my ineptitude

Are you suggesting that our two ears are unable to locate sound from all around us? And all the sounds you hear in your life only happens in front of you?!

[Hugh Robjohns]

I think he was joking. The bouncy green thing is a big clue...

[jimjazzdad]

I was joking but I still hate dealing with HDMI, optical digital audio, 5.1, 7.1 or anything other than 'plain vanilla stereo' when watching videos at home.

[Aled Hughes]

I think he was joking. The bouncy green thing is a big clue...

Sorry, I might be spending a bit too much time on Facebook groups where these things are said seriously!

[Arpangel]

Surround sound, AV receivers, I can’t take them seriously, just like Quadraphonics, I see some people with huge AV amps, with just two stereo speakers connected to it.

[The Red Bladder]

This whole thread should be mandatory reading for all consumer AV manufacturers. The whole TV industry has managed to make a complete dog's breakfast out of implementing anything to do with audio above and beyond stereo. Worse still, they have made an unholy mess of the introduction of digital video.

We now have three main competing 3D audio formats. Add to that two competing audio surround environments - 5.1 and 7.1 - plus virtual surround. Now add all the totally unnecessary confusion of the various types of digital distribution of audio and video and the average punter is completely lost. They neither know nor do they care what or who an HDMI cable is or what an ARC signal does. They just want the damn thing to work!

And then we have the mess the manufacturers and broadcasters made and continue to make of digital video. Too many stations crammed onto one transponder, leading to some truly horrible digital artifacts. Audio not synced to picture, e.g. the analogue audio-out from a TV set is seldom locked to the digital or even the internal audio. Run both and get a nasty echo! And more superfluous consumer codecs than you can shake a stick at - literally hundreds!

After years of very pointless format wars in the 70s, 80s and 90s, with everybody and their mothers-in-law launching their own pet digital disk/tape/whatever project, Sony, JVC, Panasonic, Phillips and a few others announced the arrival of the DVD at the very crowded IBC press event (1995?) in Amsterdam. "At last!" we thought. "These idiots are actually talking to each other!"

Well, it couldn't last now, could it? Blu-Ray followed by multi-layered Blu-Ray. And now this absolute mess that is 3D audio and some pretty ghastly earlier attempts at surround mixes for domestic consumption.

At least the Blu-Ray scene seems to have settled down, but streaming and broadcasting continue the time-honoured tradition of self-inflicted confusion.