Pickup replacements- pointless or necessary?

[IAA]

Hi,
As some might recall from my previous posts, I’m a keyboard player by training but have recently been upping my guitar playing. Drew (thank you sir!) set up my two guitars and that helped no end to make playing them a far more enjoyable experience. But I’ve now changed a few things got a couple more guitars and wondered about upgrading. Some things seem obvious, locking tuners and bridges but it’s pickups that have got me wondering.

If I’m going through my amp and my sound is crunch (think blues driver and orange amp) can the subtlety of a different telecaster pick up be even heard?
There’s an industry that says of course! But I wonder what the Jedi here think?

Is it worth changing pickups when you’re distorting the sound anyway?

Thanks

Ian

[Moroccomoose]

Hi, I can only speak as I found, but I had a cheap strat knock off... one of those ones that comes with a small amp and bits n bobs you might buy a teenager for thier first guitar.... It was my first guitar and I was a teenager then!

A few years ago, I changed the pickups from the brandless Chinese built pickups it came with to Tonerider pickups and the difference was chalk and cheese! Such an improvement. It actually made the guitar a viable 'real' instrument that actually sounded like a strat. It had sustain and a ton more life and harmonics.

So I guess the answer is (as always) it depends!

It depends on what you are starting with,what you are changing to and where you are trying to get to.

I did mine as a bit of a punt, and I wanted to have a go at wiring. While I was on , I changed all the pots and caps too. That's a whole other discussion about the value of doing that! I also shielded the cavity. I think that might have been one of the biggest improvements.

Anyway, to cut short a ramble, changing the pickups certainly can make a big difference!

Stu.

[Wonks]

Locking tuners aren’t really necessary on a non-trem guitar. They can make string changing easier for some people but there’s no extra tuning stability over all but the very cheapest standard tuners these days.

You can certainly hear the difference between standard and overwound and very hot/powerful Tele pickups with overdrive, though you’d probably be hard pressed to hear much difference between different manufacturers’ ‘vintage’ tele sets of the same type/era.

Whilst the neck pickup remained pretty much the same for many, many years, the bridge pickup changed a few times with different magnets and wire gauges. Broadcaster era bridge pickups were quite powerful and thicker-sounding before they changed to having more treble and being slightly less powerful. And then for a while they changed to a very strident, very trebbly sound beloved of country players, before switching back to a more vintage style.

So, as always, the answer is ‘it depends’.

Low output and bright pickups will give a different sound through a given setting on an overdrive pedal than a higher output pickup with more mids and less treble, but that can often be compensated for by adjusting the pedal controls (unless you already have the gain/drive up fully).

But very powerful single coil pickups aren’t always the answer as they can sound very dull. I fitted a SD Fat Tele bridge and a SD Fat Strat neck pickup in one of my Teles and they sounded far too thick, dull and lifeless when clean and just about OK for driven sounds, though still lacking dynamics. I reverted back to a standard Tele bridge and Strat neck pickup and it was much better.

It’s always going to be down to personal taste as to what constitutes a good pickup, so you really need to make your own mind up.

What do you feel your current pickups are lacking? Have you played a Tele you liked the sound of more and if so, what pickups did it have?

[Wonks]

And even with humbuckers you can have a big difference in the overdrive sound. I’ve been through a range of Iron Gear humbuckers on one guitar (Tesla Sharks, Rolling Mill and Blues Engines) and I much prefer the Blues Engines, both clean and driven.

[BigRedX]

Unless the current pickups don't have the right level of output to suit the sounds required in conjunction with the amp, I've always found that EQ and playing technique are far more important.

I used to have lots of different guitars with different types of pickup, but I discovered that I could get all the sounds I wanted out of any of the guitars and that I was choosing instruments for ease of playing a particular part rather than any inherent sound. Since then I've sold all my guitars except for two that I enjoy playing the most.

The last time I changed the pickups on an electric instrument - a cheap 5-string bass that I fitted with an EMG system that cost about 50% of what I'd originally paid for the bass - it made zero difference to the sound.

[zenguitar]

There are a number of 'classic' pick-ups (Tele, Strat, P90, PAF, etc) that could be described as references. You can think of them as a set of recipes, each has a type of construction together with a range of variables.

On budget guitars you can come up against budget pick-ups that may look OK but are constructed to the 'wrong' recipe for the type of guitar they are fitted in. They aren't intrinsically bad pick-ups, some can be very good, but they will not sound the way you would expect that guitar to sound.

So, for example, if your budget Tele doesn't sound like a Telecaster it could well be the pick-ups at fault. A replacement set of pick-ups here could make a big difference.

If your pick-up has been built to the right recipe for your style of guitar the differences between pick-ups comes down to the variables in the recipe. Here there can be big differences, but generally things are a little more subtle.

Replacement pick-ups can make a difference, but you do have to have a clear idea of the problem you are trying to fix. In what areas are the existing pick-ups lacking? What are they doing well that you would like to hear more of? Is one pick-up just right but you can't get the sounds you want from the other one, or the combined positions.

Once you have a clear idea of what you want, you can narrow down the search.

But before swapping pick-ups you need to experiment with fine tuning the height of each pick-up, the relative heights of the bass and treble side of each pick-up and finally experiment with the relative heights of all the pick-up combinations. These can make a massive difference to the sounds your guitar produces.

I ALWAYS do this as part of a set-up. I have preferred combinations, but can also tweak further to match each player's preferences and style.

And listening to the variations you can achieve will also help inform replacement choices. If you prefer the sound with the pick-up closer to the strings you might like an over-wound replacement. But if you prefer the sound with it further away from the strings you might try something under-wound.

And a final comment on locking tuners. They are of use to a tiny, tiny, minority of players who use the trem so hard that the strings go completely slack. And even then, in most cases it's just as useful to have spare guitars and roadies.

Locking tuners are generally fitted to differentiate between different tiers within the same range and to facilitate 'selling up'. With properly fitted strings a standard tuning post will secure the string better than a locking tuner.

Andy

[tea for two]

My BC Rich Warlock I've never changed its BC Rich branded hummers : don't know who actually makes them.

As BigRedX I've just tried to play what I can with my elcheapo Electric Guitars trying to get the most from my severely limited ability.
Putting thru FX pedals or shaping the tone inside DAW that's wot I do.

I know shaping tone in DAW isn't feasible for live.
I would suggest a Guitar EQ butt I've never purchased such so don't know which to recommend.

::

I've never had the luxury of purchasing noodling on better Electric Guitars better pups better hummers : so don't know what I'm missing.
Even when I've been in Guitar shoppees I've just looked at expensive Guitars touched a few dats dat.

[Drew Stephenson]

If I remember rightly, Ian's guitars are a Squire and an Epiphone, so we're talking about quite reasonable quality guitars. We're certainly not in bargain-basement territory.
To pick up on Andy's point above, I'd start by working out what aspect of the existing sound I thought could be bettered, then play around with pick-up heights for a bit to see what changes I could get with the existing kit.

[Wonks]

I can't remember what models they are, and the Squier and Epiphone ranges do cover bargain basement up to very respectable mid-priced ranges, so you can't expect the pickup quality to be the same throughout.

The lowest priced models in each will have the cheapest generic ceramic magnet pickups, improving as you move up the price ranges. Once you get to the alnico magnet pickup models (except for the rocky high-gain pickup guitars), then you've reached a reasonable standard of pickup IMO. But it's not always easy to tell by the descriptions given.

[SecretSam]

Good guitars can be pretty cheap these days.

I've been through the process of upgrading a junk shop strat. It's now good, and it was an absorbing project. But for the same money I could have got something that didn't need upgrades ...

Worth thinking about before dropping two or three hundred notes on boutique pickups.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

Here is everything that makes a difference to the guitar, actually tested so you can hear for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n02tImc ... el=JimLill

[Wonks]

Here is everything that makes a difference to the guitar, actually tested so you can hear for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n02tImc ... el=JimLill

Yes, mainly the pickups, but I find a lot of that video to be poor science, hiding everything behind a lot of distortion, and purely subjective, with no frequency graphs or waveform decay plots etc.

[zenguitar]

Actually, in his comparisons claiming that they sounded the same, I could hear a difference.

I just get fed up with this repeated non-sense on YouTube channels.

Andy

[Wonks]

Actually, in his comparisons claiming that they sounded the same, I could hear a difference.

I just get fed up with this repeated non-sense on YouTube channels.

Andy

Same here, and my ears aren’t the best in the world.

[Dynamic Mike]

I have an Ibanez Jet King with stock Ibanez P90's. Several people on guitar forums have upgraded to expensive boutique pickups. Almost all of them have ended up refitting the originals.

Some combinations work, some don't. Paying more won't necessarily get you an improvement.

[rggillespie]

'Is it worth changing pickups when you’re distorting the sound anyway?' my feeling on this is no, once distortion sets in, the more of it there is, the harder I find it to tell what the guitar is. I've had success with pickup replacement when I like the guitar but not so much the tone of it clean. Taking it to a good luthier and asking for their thoughts and advice is what I've done. I changed out some stock mij tele pickups for fralin blues specials they recommended and its was a big improvement for me. I think maybe partly the new pick ups but also a pro set up for the guitar and pick up height adjustment etc. I'm not sure its really worth it if the amp is already overdriving from the get go though. A pro set up always helps whatever you do imho

[IAA]

Thanks all of you for that helpful advice. I think I get this idea of recipes and thence subtle differences. And Drew is right to point me indirection of adjustment. I’ve added a Squier 60s custom Tele to my guitars and I’ve decided I really like the feel, it’s the guitar I pick up first to noodle with. So I noticed my sound issue is that it’s lack of middle freq balance. Neck is a Seymour Duncan quarter pounder which is a replacement and I do like its darker but gutsy tone. The bridge is very shrill such that I only use it in the middle position. I’m going to adjust the height and drop the treble side to see if that helps. But I was wondering if it’s something you’d be better of sorting at the amp. By the way I use the Spark 40 modelling amp.

Obviously im a relatively newbie at this, but I agree that YouTube doesn’t really help much, me anyway.

Ian

[Wonks]

I find that bringing the pickup nearer the strings gives an increased fullness to the tone and relatively less treble in the overall balance. The fundamental and 2nd harmonic are less present than other harmonics at the bridge pickup position due to the small string vibration amplitude at that point. I’m guessing that raising the pickup increases the fundamental to harmonic ratio as you get a stronger magnetic flux interacting with the strings - but that is just a guess.

So you could try raising the bridge pickup as high as you can without hitting the strings and see how that sounds. It’s not going to do miracles, but it may improve things. I’d also try lowering the pickup significantly first and seeing/hearing how the sound changes as you raise it up (you’ll need to try and compensate for the change in volume as you raise the pickup to avoid the standard ‘louder is better’ phenomenon).

But you could always try adding a small value capacitor from the pickup to ground to roll off excess treble and shift the pickup resonant peak a bit lower. described in this video

https://youtu.be/if1NrMvQjv4?si=FjG0dMUrxU0ChBS0
It's something you can test out with a modified guitar lead without having to open up the guitar (though you'll need to do that to finally add the cap).

And here he describes making an external test box to make the process easier.

https://youtu.be/zWRD5PawPw0?si=2c69kZ--AMZFcTvl

[Wonks]

The Squier Classic Vibe 60’s Custom Tele has alnico pickups designed to sound like 60s Tele pickups, which were the very bright sounding ones. So for the sound you want, you probably didn’t start at quite the right place.

From what I can see, the bridge unit comes with a copper baseplate, which helps to increase bass and reduce high treble, so there isn’t the option of adding one to modify the tone.

If you can try out the capacitor mods then you might get the bridge sounding more the way you like it, otherwise you may benefit from a bridge pickup swap (or take up some country chicken pickin’).

[Tomás Mulcahy]

but I find a lot of that video to be poor science

I would say poor methodology rather than poor science as such because the hypothesis is worthy of merit IMO. He has two massive variables not controlled for- visual bias, and human performance. To be sure we are not "seeing" the difference it would need to be a blind test, with the strumming done by a robot (it's been done before).

It is truly amazing how visual bias makes you hear the same thing differently.

[Wonks]

He's not actually measuring anything, so that's definitely poor science. Plus he's using a distorting amp, and you don't want high levels of distortion when taking readings.

Probably worth starting a separate topic if you want to go into it.

[tea for two]

So I noticed my sound issue is that it’s lack of middle freq balance. Neck is a Seymour Duncan quarter pounder which is a replacement and I do like its darker but gutsy tone. The bridge is very shrill such that I only use it in the middle position. I’m going to adjust the height and drop the treble side to see if that helps. But I was wondering if it’s something you’d be better of sorting at the amp. By the way I use the Spark 40 modelling amp.

Might be worth taking a punt on Boss GE-7 EQ. Thomann do their 30days return.

[IAA]

So for the sound you want, you probably didn’t start at quite the right place.

This is true! But given it’s not a hugely expensive buy I think it was in my head as a possible “project” and build on a decent shell. But by the same token I don’t want to put hugely expensive extras for 0 gain!

I’m really liking the feel of it, I just want it to be a broader tone palette. Will go and check heights etc and report back!

Ian

[Tomás Mulcahy]

He's not actually measuring anything

Yes I understand that criticism, but it's not really germane to my point about the hypothesis. He is demonstrating perception. Which he could measure with blind AB tests by improving his methodology. It is a pity he didn't, that is true.

[Wonks]

Well I've done a quick comparison between the two Teles I've got available (one's out on loan) and they don't sound as different as I thought they did at all.

Recorded through my Fender Tone Master Pro, using exactly the same amp and effects each time.

1st part is clean through a 65 Deluxe Reverb model. No reverb.

2nd is the same but with a Bluesbreaker Pedal sim in front set to maximum drive and with tone control in the middle and the drive set to get a similar level to the clean amp. This hopefully gets close to IAA's pedal arrangement.

The 3rd is the same as the 2bs but with a Tube Screamer sim in front of the Bluesbreaker pedal for more drive. Level tone and drive knobs all centred.

Each full phrase is repeated four times, the first and third phrases are Tele no.1, and the second and fourth phrases are Tele No. 2. So the guitars swap over automatically to make it easier to compare the sounds.

Tele No.1 is a 2008 Fender Road Worn Tele with a Bareknuckle BootCamp True Grit bridge pickup. This should be a slightly overwound alnico 5 pickup with a 10k DCR

Tele No.2 is a combination of a Fender neck and a home-made mahogany body. This has a DiMarzio True Velvet in the bridge, an alnico 5 pickup with a 7.4k DCR.

https://on.soundcloud.com/G2SrK

I can certainly hear the difference between the two guitars/pickups when through a clean amp, though not as different as I thought they'd be. The BK Bootcamp has slightly more mids, whilst the True Velvet has more treble and bass, and is the more balanced sound of the two.

With the Bluesbreaker overdrive on, I can hear a slight difference at times, but it's quite minor, and not enough to worry about.

With the Tubescreamer feeding the Bluesbreaker, I can't tell any difference.

I had hoped the two guitars would be quite different sounding, and so make any differences through drive pedals more pronounced, but they are what they are.

So the more drive you put quite similar sounding guitars through, the less the sound differs, until you get to the point where the pedals take over. The more the guitars differ in sound when clean, the more drive will be required before you can't tell any difference, but you'll eventually get to that point (allowing for both being single coils).