Zoom F3 and XLR adapters

[MilesTFBaxxter]

I've been looking into buying the Zoom F3 as I want to do more sound effect recording. I've previously used my old Zoom H2 (not the Zoom H2N), which quickly gets noisy when recording something more quiet and you have to increase the gain in post. The self-noise on the F3 is supposed to be very low with great preamps, so it seems like a good choice!

But I'd also like to use it with lavalier microphones for recording some dialogue, as well as recording some music from either a mixer or some synths directly. And this is where things get confusing to me.

The Zoom F3 only has XLR inputs. Most lavalier microphones are 3.5 mm jacks. So I'll need some sort of adapter.

Many lavalier microphones don't have their own power supply, and will require a bit of power from whatever they're connecting to. As an example, I have the Sony ECM-LV1. But will a regular XLR to 3.5 mm adapter be able to supply a lavalier with power? Or do you need to get some special (and no doubt more expensive) adapter for that?

The Sony ECM-LV1 is also a stereo lavalier, and it seems the Zoom F3 XLR inputs are mono, so you'd need to use both to get stereo sound. So I guess I'd need 2 x XLR adapters, then a 3.5 mm TRS female to 2 x 3.5 mm TS male splitter cable (which doesn't seem that common; the reverse seems a lot more common, with 3.5 mm male to 2 x 3.5 mm female). Would this work? Or would the splitter cable somehow get in the way of the power needed?

For synth recording, I'm guessing I'd need something similar if I'm looking to have stereo sound. But, I'm guessing they would work fine with "unpowered" XLR adapters (presuming there's a difference), as the synths and mixer are already powered by themselves.

I've tried googling and looking into this, but haven't found many answers. Which is surprising, as the Zoom F3 seems to be a popular unit, and I'd imagine a lot of people would want to use them with lavaliers given its size.

Thanks a bunch to anyone able to provide some answers!

[James Perrett]

It looks like you need a phantom power to plug-in power adaptor which reduces the 48V phantom power down to the 3-5V needed by most electret mics. I found a stereo version at

https://store.lom.audio/products/usi-phantom-adapter

although there are possibly other alternatives.

For line level sources you just need adaptor cables to suit whatever you are connecting to it. However, given that you will be using phantom power at some point, it would be sensible for the cables to have capacitors in them to prevent phantom power from being accidentally sent to the line level source. Alternatively you could use DI boxes or isolation boxes to achieve as similar thing.

Edit - I just checked and neither the Zoom or the Sound Devices Mix Pre series are quite as quiet as a decent studio preamp. They all use A weighting to make their noise specs look better so they are around 3dB noisier than they would first appear.

[Bob Bickerton]

As James has noted you’ll need an adaptor to convert the F3’s 48v Phantom power to plug-in power.

Regarding preamp self noise, Zoom F3s and MixPres are well regarded for field recording and it’s likely mic self-noise would be more of a problem. This article might help: http://www.avisoft.com/recorder-tests/

Synths would obviously not be a problem.

Bob

[James Perrett]

Regarding preamp self noise, Zoom F3s and MixPres are well regarded for field recording and it’s likely mic self-noise would be more of a problem. This article might help: http://www.avisoft.com/recorder-tests/

You are right Bob - small electret condenser mics like those used in lavalier mics are usually noisier than all but the worst preamps. I mentioned it because I was surprised to see Sound Devices (who I always considered to be a high quality engineering led company) using A weighting and quoting numbers that can be equalled, if not beaten, by a cheap Allen & Heath Zed mixer.

[Bob Bickerton]

Shows you how good A&H Zed mixers are

Bob

[tea for two]

Regarding preamp self noise, Zoom F3s and MixPres are well regarded for field recording and it’s likely mic self-noise would be more of a problem. This article might help: http://www.avisoft.com/recorder-tests/

Ta for this.
I was searching for a relatively for me affordable 4xlr portable : Tascam DR-70d doesn't do too shabbily in this article list. Says it's for DSLRs, has 1/4-inch mounting bracket for camera yet I think it works also just as a standalone.

[Bob Bickerton]

Yep, I also have a Tascam DR-100MKIII which is just below the DR-70d on that list, which I use often when I don't feel like taking the Sound Devices out - performs pretty well even for quiet ambient stuff.

Bob

[Hugh Robjohns]

I was surprised to see Sound Devices (who I always considered to be a high quality engineering led company) using A weighting and quoting numbers that can be equalled, if not beaten, by a cheap Allen & Heath Zed mixer.

A-Weighting is appropriate for describing the human perceived level of the noise floor, and most manufacturers use it. It is roughly 3dB lower than the unweighted figure, but it doesn't matter if you compare only A-wrd figures.

Also note that that chart is apparently obtained at maximum gain (76dB in the case if the MixPre), not the more usual 60dB gain figure.

The Sound Devices MixPre is very good, but not the best SD can do. Both the 7-series and the Scorpio perform better... at significantly higher prices.

A&H Zed mixers don't cram so many channels into such a small space wrapped up with a load of digital conversion, storage, control and display hardware. So it's not really a fair comparison.

[tea for two]

Just seen SoS review of Zoom MicTrak with 32bit floating point.
Perhaps worth considering for the OP.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/zoom-mictraks
From the review "One advantage of 32‑bit floating‑point recording is that there’s no need for a manual gain control — the M2 can cope with anything up to a whopping 135dB SPL — so there isn’t one."

M4 MicTrak has 2XLR/TRS inputs of their F series.

[Bob Bickerton]

Just to note the Zoom F3 also has 32 bit float-point, is cheaper than the M4 and is probably more suitable for work in the field. Just saying

Bob

[Hugh Robjohns]

The self-noise on the F3 is supposed to be very low with great preamps, so it seems like a good choice!

It is! Much quieter than the H-series recorders.

The Zoom F3 only has XLR inputs. Most lavalier microphones are 3.5 mm jacks. So I'll need some sort of adapter.

You will. Something like this:

https://www.pinknoise-systems.co.uk/dei ... rsion.html

You'll find lots of cheap 3.5mm to XLR adapters, but they don't convert phantom power to the plugin power needed by lavaliers etc. The Deity one does.... ands it's one channel, of course...

I have the Sony ECM-LV1...

You'll need a 3.5mm splitter cable to break out the stereo signal from the mic into two mono signals for the recorder, via two power adapters as above.

But will a regular XLR to 3.5 mm adapter be able to supply a lavalier with power? Or do you need to get some special (and no doubt more expensive) adapter for that?

No, yes and yes, in that order... although £25 is actually a very price for that kind of adapter. Many are around £80!

The Sony ECM-LV1 is also a stereo lavalier, and it seems the Zoom F3 XLR inputs are mono, so you'd need to use both to get stereo sound. So I guess I'd need 2 x XLR adapters, then a 3.5 mm TRS female to 2 x 3.5 mm TS male splitter cable

Yes, exactly that.

For synth recording, I'm guessing I'd need something similar if I'm looking to have stereo sound. But, I'm guessing they would work fine with "unpowered" XLR adapters (presuming there's a difference), as the synths and mixer are already powered by themselves.

Just a simple adapter or TS to XLR cable will be fine.

...I'd imagine a lot of people would want to use them with lavaliers given its size.

Most professional lavaliers come with XLR adapters as standard.

[MilesTFBaxxter]

Thanks a whole bunch for all the answers! Been difficult getting answers elsewhere. Somewhat surprising given the Zoom F3's popularity, but at the same time my questions might be a bit niche. Really appreciate people taking the time to share their expertise.

I do have a few more questions. Numbering the main ones, to make it easier.

To be super sure, so if I e.g. get 2 x Røde VXLR+ plugs to use on a Zoom F3, then some sort of splitter cable (because stereo):

1. Will the Sony ECM-LV1 microphone still get power, or will the splitter negate that power?

1.5. Will the Sony ECM-LV1 it get too much power and potentially get damaged? Since it's getting power from 2 x VXLR+ adapters as opposed to just one.

3. Can you use a VXLR+ adapter with something that doesn't require powering (e.g. mixers or synths), or could that damage it?

4. If phantom power is turned off on the Zoom F3, would a VXLR+ adapter still work things that don't require powering (e.g. mixers and synths)?

5. Are there any other recorders, that are roughly in the same price range and that allows for external microphones and has 32-bit float, that might be "better" than the Zoom F3 and be worth considering? The Zoom M4 was mentioned which looks neat (though it's more expensive, but could save money by not needing to get adapters etc.), but this video doesn't make it seem like a good option.

[James Perrett]

3. Can you use a VXLR+ adapter with something that doesn't require powering (e.g. mixers or synths), or could that damage it?

4. If phantom power is turned off on the Zoom F3, would a VXLR+ adapter still work things that don't require powering (e.g. mixers and synths)?

I wouldn't use the VXLR+ adaptor with anything other than plug-in power microphones. While the voltage is lower than phantom power, you will still get loud cracks and pops when connecting/disconnecting and some devices won't like any voltage on their outputs. It would be far better to use the appropriate cable like these

https://www.studiospares.com/xlr-male-s ... -1m-5m.htm

[Hugh Robjohns]

1. Will the Sony ECM-LV1 microphone still get power, or will the splitter negate that power?

Yes, it will still get power via the splitter.

1.5. Will the Sony ECM-LV1 it get too much power and potentially get damaged? Since it's getting power from 2 x VXLR+ adapters as opposed to just one.

No, it won't get too much power. Both channels are powered from a stereo 3.5mm input too.

3. Can you use a VXLR+ adapter with something that doesn't require powering (e.g. mixers or synths), or could that damage it?

You shouldn't. In theory damage is unlikely but you might get pops and bangs... so why take the risk when you don't have too (and waste battery power generating phantom that's not needed)? Use proper TS-XLR cables for synths or TSR-XLR (or XLR-XLR) cables for mixers.

4. If phantom power is turned off on the Zoom F3, would a VXLR+ adapter still work things that don't require powering (e.g. mixers and synths)?

Probably, yes... but you'd have an unbalanced connection when your mixer (and some synths) usually have balanced connections.

5. Are there any other recorders, that are roughly in the same price range and that allows for external microphones and has 32-bit float, that might be "better" than the Zoom F3 and be worth considering?

Currently the Sound Devices MixPre 3 or zoom m4 are the only 32 bit float alternatives for similar money.

[BWC]

Currently the Sound Devices MixPre 3 or zoom m4 are the only 32 bit float alternatives for similar money.

...and TASCAM has one. https://tascam.com/us/product/portacapture_x8/top

[Hugh Robjohns]

Ooh. That one passed me by thanks!

[Bob Bickerton]

Actually the Tascam Portacapture apparently has 3.5mm TRS mic input with plug-in power: https://tascam.com/us/product/portacapture_x8/spec

This would mean you could use your Sony mic without adaptors, but still have the option to use XLR phantom powered mics without having to faff with adaptors.

Concertina Chap (of this parish) may chip in to confirm as he has one.

Bob

[tea for two]

Recently released Zoom R4 hand held recorder has 32bit floating point recording.
https://zoomcorp.com/en/gb/digital-mixe ... multitrak/
It's in Zoom R20, R12 family.

Zoom did what I suggested Tascam were missing a trick after Concertina Chap's review of Tascam X8 for SoS magazine : making it also a multi track recorder for musicians.
https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/view ... hp?t=83411