Recording Pipe Organ

[nanotech11]

I am new to recording audio in general but I have done some research on this topic lately. I recently bought a zoom h4n pro to record the organ and I find that, while the built in mics are far better than using my phone, it doesn't capture the bass/pedals very well.

Would it make any difference if I bought a mic that would plug that into the zoom, so I use the built in stereo mics plus this mic (which can hopefully record the bass/pedals better) or is it just a bad idea? I don't know if I could mix these two tracks together to produce a more accurate sound of the organ.

My budget isn't very high, so I was thinking I would save money compared to buying a pair of microphones. I was reading that ideally I would get a pair of small diaphragm condenser mics and probably not use the zoom mics at all. Thanks

[tacitus]

You want a pair of omni mikes to give you that bottom end. Ideally a pair, but you could add one and use it to fill in the bass. You’ll need to transfer the recorded channels to a computer and edit tgem for balance, etc.

A pair of omnis would allow you to use just the mikes you plug in and the paradigm for good quality at a low price here is the Line Audio Omni-1 model which weighs in at about £160 (each). A pair of these would be able to record most classical concerts and pipe organs. You could buy one at a time.

One word though: the Omni-1s have an even frequency response which suggests they should be nearer to the sound source than omni mikes designed with a treble lift to allow for more distant placing, such as you might want for some organs in impressive acoustic spaces. In that case, a pair of used Rode NT5 mikes with the optional N45-O omni capsules might be a better bet.

There are threads here on SOS about organ recording if you haven’t already found them, and about using recorders like yours for this work. On the wider web, there are some mammoth threads over on Gearspace which are a bit alarming if you’re recording parish-church organs on a budget since they cover equipment at prices to suit USA-level disposable incomes and cathedral-sized venues (and it is a gear-worship site). But worth a read if you bear that in mind.

And keep asking us here. I’ve learnt so much from the collective wisdom of SOS. I might get the hang of it all eventually.

[Nazard]

Welcome to the SoS forum!

Just a few questions, please.
Are you playing the organ and recording yourself? Or are you recording someone else?
Where are you placing the recorder?
Is the organ one where the manuals and pedalboard are within the organ casework, or is it a separate console?

[The Elf]

Is it that the mic's aren't picking up the bass frequencies very well, or is that your monitoring system isn't reproducing them? What are you playing the recordings back on?

[Bob Bickerton]

The obvious solution is a pair of SDC Omni mics which will give you the frequency range required. The Line audio OM1 mics would be fine, perhaps with a little high frequency lift in post, and would be far more suitable than the Zoom’s own mics.

Bob

[Hugh Robjohns]

I recently bought a zoom h4n pro to record the organ and I find that, while the built in mics are far better than using my phone, it doesn't capture the bass/pedals very well.

That's not entirely surprising, but before rushing out to buy new mics, check that the lo-cut filter option is set to Off on all channels.

Would it make any difference if I bought a mic that would plug that into the zoom, so I use the built in stereo mics plus this mic (which can hopefully record the bass/pedals better) or is it just a bad idea? I don't know if I could mix these two tracks together to produce a more accurate sound of the organ.

You could. Connect a single omni mic via an XLR input, then pan it centrally in you computer DAW and roll off everything above 100Hz or so. In that way you'll get stereo from the built in mics, and bass from the omni. The Line Audio om1 is highly praised as a low cost but good quality option.

I was reading that ideally I would get a pair of small diaphragm condenser mics and probably not use the zoom mics at all. Thanks

Ideally, yes — but omni capsules again. A pair of OM1s or rode nt55s perhaps...

[tacitus]

And I’ll just point out that when Hugh, Bob and others talk about OM1s and I mention Omni-1s, we’re talking about the same mike - the appellation has changed but not the mike itself.

Moreover, the Rode NT5 I mentioned is a similar but slightly less sophisticated version of the NT55 also mentioned. The NT5 is freely available used at lower prices; the NT55 has the omni capsule with it that you buy separately for the NT5.

[nanotech11]

Wow, quite a few replies, thank you. I uploaded some audio samples (mp3s) to dropbox so you can give them a listen if you want. Slightly different registration used for each. Also different mic placement (I an still trying to figure out the best place to put the mic). You can hear the pedal by itself around 1:04 for Samples 1 and 2.

I also uploaded a picture that shows the general layout of the sanctuary. The console (red circle) is right next to the organ, so I may not hear exactly what the audience/mic hears, unfortunately. The red "x" is where I usually place the mic. I have experimented putting the mic past the stage steps but then it sounds far away. I believe that's what I did in Sample 2.

I will try to answer all the questions that you have. For the audio samples all I did was import into audacity and bump up the gain a bit.

Link to dropbox
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/3sk814g9 ... xkmcq&dl=0

@tacitus
I live in Canada, and I did try to look up a local seller for the Omni-1 and it's not available here. I looked at music stores, amazon. No luck.

I have done some googling and looked at posts on this forum and elsewhere (not so much gearspace), and it is a lot of information. That's why I wanted to post to try to understand things better. I have no background in audio recording, so this is all new to me. I also don't have that much money to spend on this (playing the organ is my hobby).

Edit: looks like they have a reseller in Saskachewan but I don't live in that province

@Nazard
I am playing the organ and recording myself. I am placing the recorder on a normal mic stand at the far end of the stage (closest to the audience). The sanctuary isn't that large but there is still some reverb. Console and organ are separate but they are close to each other.

@The Elf
I have a pair of shure studio headphones that I use to listen to the recording on site. Back home I just use my computer external speakers.[/quote]

@Hugh
I will look into the lo-cut filter option on the zoom

I think what I will do is play around with the registration and see what kind of effect that has with the recording. Maybe what I hear at the console isn't what the audience hears and I need to bump up the registration at the pedals. I will also figure out the best place to put the mic (let me know if you have any suggestions). I also have to see if the mic is picking up sounds at the console.

I just go to the church to practice, and I just bring what I can (bare minimum). I just borrow their mic stand and use the zoom to record. I'm not going for a professional recording, but it just seems to me that the bass is lacking.

Thanks again

[The Elf]

@The Elf
I have a pair of shure studio headphones that I use to listen to the recording on site. Back home I just use my computer external speakers.

It may be worth you listening to your current recordings on a better monitoring system to see what you are really capturing. Those 'computer' speakers certainly aren't going to be up to reproducing the extreme lows of organ bass pedals. You don't specify which model of headphones you are using, but I have some Shures of my own that aren't great either.

Either way it could be worth begging some time on good monitoring just to see what problem you are trying to solve.

[tea for two]

My budget isn't very high, so I was thinking I would save money compared to buying a pair of microphones. I was reading that ideally I would get a pair of small diaphragm condenser mics and probably not use the zoom mics at all. Thanks

@The Elf
I have a pair of shure studio headphones that I use to listen to the recording on site. Back home I just use my computer external speakers.

It may be worth you listening to your current recordings on a better monitoring system to see what you are really capturing. Those 'computer' speakers certainly aren't going to be up to reproducing the extreme lows of organ bass pedals.

Is it that the mic's aren't picking up the bass frequencies very well, or is that your monitoring system isn't reproducing them? What are you playing the recordings back on?

I would suggest as The Elf suggested.

Perhaps before purchasing any microphones, purchasing something that would enable the lower end to be heard better : as even after purchasing better microphones may still not be able to hear the low end your desire.

As headphones either Philips X2hr open backed approx £100 new which gives the heaviest bass of any open backed headphones I've auditioned up to £3k,
or Superlux Evo HD681 semi open deejay headphones approx £30 new these also give heavy bass I use these for making Electronic Dance music.

[SafeandSound Mastering]

I mastered a pipe organ recording a few weeks ago for a very talented young UK individual (multi instrumentalist).

If you have someone else who can play it might be worth moving around the place of worship and literally stand and listen where there is a good tonal balance to start with, assuming that mics can be set up in that place. It could be there is an acoustic anomoly beyond a mic issue.

Pipe organs come in different sizes of course. I was listening to one about a year ago in a Cathedral and the bottom end was truly 18 inch sub woofer PA system level.

Amazing actually, whatever your spiritul leanings it is difficult not to be in awe of a very large piple organ. Very moving instrument on every level.

I will have a quick listen when I get some time (I am flat to 25Hz here) so can give you objective feedback on the bottom end of the recording in about 20 seconds of listening as a gesture of goodwill. edit : I see you have some files above.

[Nazard]

Pipe organs come in different sizes of course. I was listening to one about a year ago in a Cathedral and the bottom end was truly 18 inch sub woofer PA system level.

A 16 foot pipe (stop), has a fundamental resonance of about 32Hz at 'bottom' C and a 32 foot pipe, about 16Hz: there is be a lot of low end energy present, even from a modest instrument.

I've used portable recorders for organ practise for years and from a practical point of view, what you want to do is put the lights on, turn the blower on, take the music out, place the recorder on the console, press record and then forget about it. Similarly, it should only take a few seconds to turn it off and put it away. I only use mic stands, cables, mics etc., when recording something definitive, usually with assistance or someone else doing the recording. And I have always found the bass response of these portable devices more than adequate for their intended purpose.

The comments and offers to help are excellent and I look forward to seeing how this is resolved.

[SafeandSound Mastering]

Sample 1 and 3 are 48kHz MP3's so I used those.

You have a about 15-20dB difference between your lowest drone note/s in the 43Hz region and the upper register notes, in samples 1 (an F roughly ?) And sample 3 is similar, but fairs a little better just slightly in the lows, the highs might have been a bit more mellow in 3 to balance it, but I am recalling that from 10mins ago.

I am adding about 12dB parametric bell EQ - Q of 1.5 to sample 1 at about 44Hz - as a basic, common EQ benchmark I chose Fabfilter Pro Q3 - not that it would be necessarily used for mastering, we all know it's a common plug in. This gets it to where I feel presentation is acceptable on PMC IB1S.

On my nearfields (Dynaudio BM6P) with a specced cut off (3dB down point) of 43Hz (how useful !) that also seems about acceptable.

So in short yes your recording in bass light in my view.

The above is still not presentation of bass levels I would expect to hear in a Cathedral size church pipe organ which is huge in size and its almost seismic capability to produce sub bass. They are amazing, if anything can bring forth higher beings it's that ! I remember feeling energized and a little dizzy after hearing it, cleaned my head right out.

So the recording is bass light and it may be mics on the device and/or position of the device at the recording spot.

I would put your head where the recording spot is if the SPL's are safe and try and discern how much bass you hear versus higher register notes at that position and move around until the balance by ears seems more appropriate. (Radical to use ears, I know !)

That's what I always did, I walked around the room and depending on what was being recorded, with whom and how and made a starting choice, then adapted if need be.

I hope that helps a bit, good luck.

[James Perrett]

I live in Canada, and I did try to look up a local seller for the Omni-1 and it's not available here. I looked at music stores, amazon. No luck.

According to the Line Audio site, the Canadian distributor is at

https://knick31.wixsite.com/nicholashayesaudio

They tend to use smaller, specialist sellers rather than music stores.

[nanotech11]

I live in Canada, and I did try to look up a local seller for the Omni-1 and it's not available here. I looked at music stores, amazon. No luck.

According to the Line Audio site, the Canadian distributor is at

https://knick31.wixsite.com/nicholashayesaudio

They tend to use smaller, specialist sellers rather than music stores.

Yes, I looked into it after responding and I contacted the seller. Turns out I can get it shipped to me, which is great.

Thank you for all your responses, you have all been very helpful. Big thanks to SafeandSound Mastering for listening to my audio samples and for providing such detailed feedback. This thread shows up on google now, when I search "recording organ."

I will first assess the acoustics of the room while the organ is playing and go from there. I will also look into getting better headphones. I don't have them with me at the moment so I am not sure what model they are. I hope to borrow my friend's condenser mics (he says they are the Rode NT4's) and then I can compare the audio quality. Not ideal but at least I have a point of comparison.

At some point I hope to upload recordings to youtube, that is why I was looking for better sound quality.

[tea for two]

This thread shows up on google now, when I search "recording organ."

https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/view ... hp?t=34964
This "Recording organ in a church - tips?" thread is also handy.

[jimjazzdad]

Since you are in Canada you must know that there are lots of great Cassavant organs to record here - you may have a future vocation

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is stands. With organ recording in large churches, if you can get the mics 4 to 5 meters up in the air at the right distance from the pipes (experimentation required!) you'll be amazed. Another opposite technique is the boundary layer mic (BLM) where the mics are placed directly on the floor...obviously when the church is empty! If you search over on that 'other' audio forum, in the Remote Possibilities sub-forum, there is also quite a lot of useful advice about recording pipe organs. Good luck!

[Exalted Wombat]

There is a lo-cut setting on your Zoom h4n, in the Input menu. I don't think it's turned on by default, but it's worth checking.

The classic mic position for pipe organ is up high, in front of the pipes. This may not be practical, but at least try to get it up and out of any location that could be described as 'boxed in'.

Yes, there are mics that have better low-end response than those on the Zoom. But they're pretty good. No need to go out and spend silly money just yet!

As others have suggested, the weak point in your recording/playback chain may well be the speakers.

[Arpangel]

Ive helped out on a good few organ recordings, and sometimes you think you’ve reached a point where out of experience you’ve a good idea of what works roughly, and what set-ups don’t.
We never reached that point, where we'd automatically bung in the car our "organ rig" simply because every venue is different
We'd even look at a building and think yep, that's two 4006’s right there, go in the monitoring room and think uh-oh, we’re going to have to have a rethink!
A few different stands, and a few different mic's, always be prepared, when recording in unfamiliar places.

[tacitus]

When I was doing this more often in the past, I used to ask the guy who always seemed to hang around for anything organ-related - there’s one at every church, or used to be before they were replaced by worship-band groupies - where he thought the best organ sound was. Then I tried to better it. But usually it was fairly OK for an omni pair save for a bit of back and forth to get the ambience you want.

I recently joined the local organists association to improve my knowledge and have seen a couple of installations that I “know” will be awkward to record well. But as Arp intimated, they might turn out to be much easier. You really can’t predict until you’ve recorded and played back something. Too much visual distraction, for a start.

[Arpangel]

When I was doing this more often in the past, I used to ask the guy who always seemed to hang around for anything organ-related - there’s one at every church, or used to be before they were replaced by worship-band groupies - where he thought the best organ sound was. Then I tried to better it. But usually it was fairly OK for an omni pair save for a bit of back and forth to get the ambience you want.

I recently joined the local organists association to improve my knowledge and have seen a couple of installations that I “know” will be awkward to record well. But as Arp intimated, they might turn out to be much easier. You really can’t predict until you’ve recorded and played back something. Too much visual distraction, for a start.

The guy who I used to help out gave a a lecture at the AES in London, in the Q&A someone in the audience said "if you got a call to record an organ in a cathedral tonight what gear would you pack?"
My mate said "depends, if I'd recorded there before, if not, depends what I thought when I got there, I normally take a selection"
I was thinking, he carefully avoided giving away any trade secrets there! but honestly, I think he was being perfectly truthful.
Pipe organs have always been a passion of mine, and the old Das Alte Werk recordings from the 70’s were amazing, especially Ton Koopman.
I love Dutch and French organs, the tone of some of those is so magical.
I can remember when as a youngster, we lived on the Channel coast and I used to tune in to France Musique to hear a lot of great French organs.

[tea for two]

It's recording the Bass from the Pipe Organ in a large church that's the killer for me.
Once I have a portable 4xlr recorder probably Tascam dr70d and 4 mics I shall explore.
There's approx 2K churches in london. From those with massive Pipe Organs :
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ca ... _in_London

I shall monitor through Philips X2hr open backs the heeveeiest Bass I've heard of any open backed headphones I've auditioned up to £3k. Specs of X2hr don't tell it's story.

[James Perrett]

It's recording the Bass from the Pipe Organ in a large church that's the killer for me.
Once I have a portable 4xlr recorder probably Tascam dr70d and 4 mics I shall explore.

Have you investigated the clip-on mics for the U-44? I'm reasonably impressed with the bass end on the XYH-6 mic that I bought recently although it probably isn't as good as a pair of omnis. I see that you can also add another couple of XLR inputs (although not with phantom power) and you can also buy extension cables for these add-on capsules.

[Bob Bickerton]

Another consideration along those lines might be the Zoom MSH-6 Mid-Side capsule.

When I had a Zoom H6 recorder I found the MSH-6 to be favourite and more open sounding.

Bob

[Arpangel]

It's recording the Bass from the Pipe Organ in a large church that's the killer for me.
Once I have a portable 4xlr recorder probably Tascam dr70d and 4 mics I shall explore.
There's approx 2K churches in london. From those with massive Pipe Organs :
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ca ... _in_London

I shall monitor through Philips X2hr open backs the heeveeiest Bass I've heard of any open backed headphones I've auditioned up to £3k. Specs of X2hr don't tell it's story.

Trying to get good deep bass out of cheap mic's I’ve always found a problem, along with low noise, and a natural high end, basically everything!
It wasn’t until i hired a U87 for a session I realised what I was missing, at last bass worth having!
For organ, we found the B&K 4006 a great mic, its got a really full bass response, in fact, it can be a bit over blown if your not careful, if it was, we used to substitute them for a couple of Schoeps MK2 or more likely CCM2’s, these seemed to have a tighter bass.
All top end mic's, but to my friend, the mic was the most important thing in the signal chain. I was lucky as it gave me a chance to get what these mic's are about, the sound character.