Small portable 2 track recorder

[Aaron Straley]

Im looking at these mobile recorders to have something I can carry and record two guitars with external SDC's. Also I want to use this to record choral performances with a pair of external SDC's. Something I can carry to make recordings so I don't need to carry my laptop and interface around.
I like the zoom products but am confused as to which one would work better. The H4n, R4, and F3 all look like contenders. Weirdly enough it doesn't seem like you can change the input gain settings on the R4 and F3. That just seems wrong to me? The H4n looks like the best deal at the lowest price of around $150, plus you can adjust the input gain settings
Are there any other brands I should be looking at?
Looking to spend $200-$300

[Wonks]

You don't need to use an input gain on the R4 and F3 as they use 32-bit recording by way of two A/D converters (with different gain ranges) per input. So you've got more dynamic range available than you'll ever need (about 192db in theory). You're far more likely to set the input gain wrongly, or clip on unexpected loud noises with the H4n when setting the input gain manually.

You can normally normalise the recording, if necessary, on the 32-bit recorders the recording if you then need to export in 24-bit or 16-bit format, otherwise keep it in 32-bit floating point and adjust in your DAW.

Look at the remote powering options on offer, because battery life when phantom powering two mics is a lot less than the figures given just using the internal mics. A lithium battery mobile phone recharging block is often sufficient for many hours of recording.

[James Perrett]

If you need quiet mic preamps then I would look at the Zoom F series rather than the H or R series. The F series are around 6dB quieter than the H series.

[Aaron Straley]

Thanks James for clearing up the input gain settings. I am just not familiar with this dual A/D converters, but your explanation makes sense, and I trust your judgement.
I saw that the F3 has better noise specs on the preamps. I think I may go with this one

[Hugh Robjohns]

In order of quality, the F3 is best, then the R4 which is a close second, and lastly the H series.
For the kind of things you're talking about, the F3 would be the best option, but don't forget to budget for a decent rechargeable battery system.

If you're in the UK I can recommend PinkNoise Systems for purchase and good advice. They're near Stroud, run by a former TV sound recordist, and I use them a lot.

https://www.pinknoise-systems.co.uk/

By the way, as others have said, the F and R series use a 32bit Floating Point format with a fixed-gain preamp. There is no input gain control because none is needed. You just hit Record and let it get on with it... and then optimise the level — if needed — in a DAW afterwards.

[Wonks]

Aaron's in Pennsylvania, so not near Stroud at all.

It's a shame the mobile version of the forum doesn't show signatures.

[FrankF]

Strange, Pinknoise don't stock the Zoom R4.
Wossatallabaht, eh?

[tea for two]

R4 is quite an intriguing product for me as to me looks like a digital take on cassette 4track porta studio with a basic DAW built into the software, drum grooves built in, Guitar tuner built in.
One of R4 combi xlr ins can take a Guitar.
For recording band practice, getting demoes scratch ideas even whole song down R4 could be handy esp with its 32bit float, also where the sound sources aern't too quiet. Although might want tweezers lol for those faders / sliders.
Specs say R4 EIN -120dBu which is same as Zoom H4nPro, R4 not as quiet as Zoom H8 EIN -124dBu measured by Hugh in SoS review, R4 quieter than Zoom H2n EIN -114dBu.
Specs say Zoom F3 EIN -127dBu as is F6, F8n pro.
https://zoomcorp.com/manuals/r4-en/
https://zoomcorp.com/manuals/f3-en/

PinkNoise have Nagra Mezzo handheld recorder which I'm prolly wrong it's built in mics go to 20Hz I think, which if they do would be rather handy for recording Pipe Organs.

[James Perrett]

Strange, Pinknoise don't stock the Zoom R4.
Wossatallabaht, eh?

PinkNoise cater more for the professional sound recordist market whereas the R4 is of more interest to musicians.

[tea for two]

I've just purchased a decade older Fostex FR-2LE EIN -129dBu which puts it a trifle quieter than Zoom F3 F4 F6 F8 EIN -127dBu, and at Sound Devices MixPre level EIN -129dBu although the Sound Devices has better Dynamic range.
Glowing SoS review from John Willett.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/fostex-fr2le
Should be able to nab FR-2LE approx $70 in usa, my purchase was under £60 from well known auction site.

::

Computer audio interfaces : Audient ID14 mk2, Focusrite Clarett+ 2pre usb have EIN -129dBu.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I've just purchased a decade older Fostex FR-2LE EIN -129dBu which puts it a trifle quieter than Zoom F3 F4 F6 F8 EIN -127dBu, and at Sound Devices MixPre level EIN -129dBu although the Sound Devices has better Dynamic range.

The Fostex FR2LE was a very good machine in its day, and I still prefer working with CF cards to SD!

However, you have to be extremely careful comparing EIN figures as small changes in the measurement technique can make big changes to the resulting number.

Key amongst the most critical factors are the termination impedance, preamp gain measurement bandwidth, and weighting. Reputable companies use 150 Ohms and 60dB, with A-weighting over a 20Hz to 20kHz bandwidth. And those parameters should be stated explicitly in the specs.

Some companies use 100 or 50 Ohms or even a full short to give artificially lower figures, or use a lower gain. So tread carefully.

Glowing SoS review from John Willett.

And rightly so... but it is a product of its time, and converters have improved markedly in the intervening years. The FR2LE's converter dynamic range is only 95dB compared to 115 or more being quite typical today.

A low noise preamp is highly desirable, but it's only one facet of the whole signal path....

[tea for two]

Glowing SoS review from John Willett.

And rightly so... but it is a product of its time, and converters have improved markedly in the intervening years. The FR2LE's converter dynamic range is only 95dB compared to 115 or more being quite typical today.

A low noise preamp is highly desirable, but it's only one facet of the whole signal path....

Oh dear merely 95dB converter dynamic range yikes.
Converter dynamic range is something I usually check for based on your audio interface measurements list : Focusrite Forte I purchased because of its converters dynamic range.
I guess I just went a bit gaga reading FR-2LE EIN. I purchased mine under £60 so I'm not quite kicking meself lol.

[Wonks]

I guess I just went more gaga

FTFY

[tea for two]

ta muchly dear Wonky Wabbit.

[Aaron Straley]

Thanks for all the info. Im looking pretty hard at the F3. Seems perfect for what I need
I was bit skeptical on how well the dual A/D converters would work, but it seems flawless (according to everyone here) and the reviews I've read online. I imagine the tricky part is for the circuitry and software to decide which A/D converter to use and to make the transition seamless. Either way this will awesome for recording live and not worrying about the input gain setting

[Hugh Robjohns]

I don't think there's any need for self kicking. It's a great recorder capable of excellent results, and a real bargain at that price.

On the downside, I doubt it's serviceable if anything breaks now, but at that price it doesn't need to be, does it?

My previous points above were simply to highlight the importance of seeing the full picture rather than focusing on just one aspect, and to be aware that published specs are not always what they seem — EIN figures being a notorious example.

[rens]

I really cannot say enough good things about the F3.

Here’s a recording of a classical guitar performance that I made with an F3 and two em172 omnis to give you a feel:

https://on.soundcloud.com/9qgqkGCY6Hb4FVJL7

[jimjazzdad]

I really cannot say enough good things about the F3.

Here’s a recording of a classical guitar performance that I made with an F3 and two em172 omnis to give you a feel:

https://on.soundcloud.com/9qgqkGCY6Hb4FVJL7

A very nice recording Rens. How close were your mics? Too bad about the emergency vehicle sirens. I cannot tell you how many times that has happened to me! The bane of the location recording engineer.

[rens]

Thanks for the kind words @jimjazzdad

The mics were on stands about 2 metres either side of the player, and about 50cm off the stage.

It was a lunchtime concert in the city of London; the sirens are “part of the charm” or so I’m told.

St Mary Le Bow is a great sounding room! Would be a nice space to record in around midnight.

[tea for two]

I don't think there's any need for self kicking. It's a great recorder capable of excellent results, and a real bargain at that price.

Appreciated the encouragement dear Hugh. Gingerly treading the World of outdoor recording of nature sounds. After I sold all my mirorrless cameras and lenses after lockdown, outdoor recording gives me a reason to be ooot in the forests parks seasides once more.

[tea for two]

I really cannot say enough good things about the F3.
Here’s a recording of a classical guitar performance that I made with an F3 and two em172 omnis to give you a feel:
https://on.soundcloud.com/9qgqkGCY6Hb4FVJL7

I've been enjoying listening first thing this morning.
4 of the pieces written over a gap of 25years 1995, then lockdown.
Also poignant piece for his son also for a dear friend.

Zoom F range has so much going for them especially at their prices. Their 32bit float is attractive.
I'm considering picking up their F1 as even though it has no xlr mic ins, can clip Zoom's shotgun ms xy mics onto F1.
I can clip Zoom's mics onto my Zoom U44 just that the F1 is a step up in quality.

It was a lunchtime concert in the city of London; the sirens are “part of the charm” or so I’m told.

Also people shuffling, going in and out of the church, other noises from audience which is part of the charm lol.

St Mary Le Bow is a great sounding room! Would be a nice space to record in around midnight.

Churches Chapels I'd love to play a concert there of some of my meditative stuff.

::

St Mary Le Bow even more famouse for having on the street behind it Porterford Butchers lol. Vegans veggies please look away. Lunchtime nosh Porterford's serves up oh my gosh, also some of the most reasonable prices even compared to outside london, then 5min stroll to St Pauline grounds to sit on benches to enjoy Porterford nosh.

[Sam Spoons]

There's an older Zoom F8n on ebay for £750, comes with an OR-28 bag and talent cell battery, they have sent an offer of £700 but that still seems a little on the high side for the (discontinued) 24 bit model. I'm quite tempted, I can't really justify it as I do very little sound work these days but I have fancied one for a while.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I think the only difference between the f8n and f8n-pro is that the latter has the updated converter board for 32bit float recording.

But if you know how to optimise gain when working at 24bit the f8n is a still a superb and very well equipped recorder... Plus, a decent bag and an external battery are expensive accessories, so that sounds like a good deal to me.

[Nazard]

Andertons have a new F8n pro for £790

https://www.andertons.co.uk/zoom-f8npro ... TmEALw_wcB

I would factor the warranty into the equation. I've dealt with Andertons previously, excellent service.

[ConcertinaChap]

But if you know how to optimise gain when working at 24bit the f8n is a still a superb and very well equipped recorder...

I'd say Hugh is right (as when is he not?). I've got a mixture of 24 bit and 32 bit devices and I've concluded that 32 bit is indeed nice to have, but working with 24 bit is pretty straightforward. And yes, the f8n is a splendid bit of kit and I'm not planning on trading mine in any time soon.

CC