Vocal Mic - Silibance issues.

[distaudio]

I am experiencing some problems at the moment with my esses when recording. As in, I sing something starting with an 's' and it comes through as a hissing sound. I have tried neutralising this through effects - using a desser after running my vocals through an analyzer and finding the 's' peaks at about 4500Hz to 5000Hz and EQ of course. But after processing it enough to take the edge off the esses, it just sounds flat.

The mic I'm using is a Rode NT3 which I honestly think is the culprit (http://aus.rodemic.com/microphone.php?product=NT3). It seems to work brilliantly on things like acoustic guitars. Of course I am also using a pop shield (which I have pushed out to about a foot away from the mic) and the Mic is plugged into my M-Audio Fast Track Ultra. I've tried also running the Mic through my Behringer Mixer Preamps which seems to tame it, but just pushes the body out of a lot of frequencies, and the problems are still there.

So I'm in a place where I have processed recording after recording pointed the mic off axis, altering my proximatey, using a pencil in front of the mic but come back to the good old saying "You can't polish a turd".

I have also check google to see if there are any "Vocal Techniques" for reducing esseing, but it seems no such thing really exsists. So I'm not sure whether it is just my singing style!?

So is there anything that you could perhaps suggest that could reduce these sounds or a mic that would some how alleviate the issues.

(I will upload some vocal samples to give you an idea later)

[Jack Ruston]

Well it may be that the mic IS enhancing the frequencies that are problematic. Unfortunately most more affordable mics tend to be voiced that way (but not all).

Some things to try:

1. Move the mic so that it's not right in front of your mouth. Try pointing it moving it up level with your eyes for example. Or down a bit so that you're singing over the top of it.

2. Try modifying the way you sing your esses. You can do this by doing some 'german' takes with Z's instead of esses (which are much shorter and less harsh). When you then go back to esses they will be somewhere in the middle of the two. This will only last for a short while before you revert to the ess again.

3. Watch out for compression making this problem worse. Some compressors are worse than others in this regard.

4. You can de-ess with a plug in but be careful.

5. Try de-essing manually by drawing the volume level down on the sss and t sounds.

If you can get it right on the way in, or mostly right you'll be better off. Remember that de-essing by whatever method is MUCH easier when the esses are short, than when they are long.

J

[The Elf]

If you're using compression, then reduce the attack time to see if this helps.

Also try leaving plenty of headroom early in the recording chain.

[Doublehelix]

Good suggestions, and although it has been mentioned, I'll say it again... If you have a sibilant vocal track, over-compressing will emphasize the sibilance.

So use all the tricks at your disposal, change the way you are singing into the mic, use de-essers, and then watch over-compressing later. You can also try slowing the attack on the de-esser if it is sounding unnatural. You will get less effective de-essing, but it will sound more natural. Too much de-essing will start to sound like a lisp.

[TheReson8or]

Hi, you could change the lyrics from.."she sells sea shells on the sea shore" to "he ell ea ell on the ea ore"...I'm dead serious!!

[distaudio]

Thank you for all your suggestions. I have asked a friend and he has offer the following advice.

"To record vocals I'm curently using a large diagpram mic the rode NT2 (one of the originals) - I also have a rode NT2000, but it doesn't sound as warm as the other - they don't make the NT2 anymore - it was replaced by the NT1a
http://aus.rodemic.com/microphone.php?product=NT1-A
This would probably solve the problem, the larger the diagphram the less problem you'll have with sibilance"

Would anyone care to comment?

[Doublehelix]

It all depends on how the mic is voiced. Even large diaphragm condensers can sound sibilant, so don't assume that the NT2 is magically going to sound right.

All voices have some form of sibilance to them when pronouncing "esses" and "shes", and depending on where (and if) in the frequency range the mic being used has a presence peak, it could be emphasizing the same frequency area as the singer's sibilance.

I find mics that might sound a bit sibilant on some singers sound fine with others, so sometimes it is a bit of a singer-to-mic matching game.

The current trend in "good-sounding" vocals (???) is to have a bit a brighter top end, and as such, a lot of the newer, less-expensive mics are hyped at the top end for that instant appeal factor. Don't buy into that!!! It is rubbish!

I used to own one of the original NT2s, and if I remember correctly (it has been a long time...), it was not necessarily harsh, but I think it tended towards sibilance a bit.

Experiment and see what you get!

[distaudio]

So my only chance really is to go into a music store with my laptop and audio interface and try some mics?

[steve355]

I've had a similar problem for ages, where the ssss becomes a very short but harsh distortion, giving it a lisp-like thhhh quality. I've changed mic, preamp and converters by I still get it. It's been driving me nuts and ruining my recordings.

I'll post a copy of an example later - it would be interesting to compare with yours.

I wonder sometimes, is it possible to overload a mic without it peaking? To get "quiet distortion".....

[Hugh Robjohns]

Large diaphgram mics tend to roll off at the top end sooner than small diaphragm mics, and so that can help reduce the effects of sibilance in some cases... but usually the problematical frequencies are very much lower (4-8kHz) and so diaphragm size makes little practical difference.

Insufficicent headroom generally makes sibilance worse, as does poor mic technique, and some voices are just very sibilant (and the owner of the voice will be the last person to know!).

Placing the mic above the vocalist at forehead height (or higher), tilted slightly down towards the mouth often helps enormously. Working with greater distance -- a foot, say -- instead of a few inches also helps a lot too.

Hugh

[distaudio]

Large diaphgram mics tend to roll off at the top end sooner than small diaphragm mics, and so that can help reduce the effects of sibilance in some cases... but usually the problematical frequencies are very much lower (4-8kHz) and so diaphragm size makes little practical difference.

Insufficicent headroom generally makes sibilance worse, as does poor mic technique, and some voices are just very sibilant (and the owner of the voice will be the last person to know!).

Placing the mic above the vocalist at forehead height (or higher), tilted slightly down towards the mouth often helps enormously. Working with greater distance -- a foot, say -- instead of a few inches also helps a lot too.

Hugh

Thanks Hugh. I have my microphone seated pointing upwards in the mic clip. So can you tell how do you mean pointing it towards my mouth if it is seated upwards?

If anyone would like to listen to how bad this recording is here is a sample to download.

This is no eq, no compression, no eq, no automation. Just from mouth to NT3 to Fast track ultra to Cubase.

Once again all feedback is welcomed.

http://www.distaudio.com/08.12.07wextravoxVocalSample.mp3

Link

[matt keen]

My understanding is that higher frequencies are projected by bouncing off the roof of your mouth and therefore are traveling downwards once past ur lips. So mic below bottom lip = more higher frequencies (sibilance). To avoid that put mic level or above your nose and angle down towards your mouth.

Thats what Hugh said I think

[Hugh Robjohns]

I have my microphone seated pointing upwards in the mic clip. So can you tell how do you mean pointing it towards my mouth if it is seated upwards?

This is usually easiest done by suspending the mic from above (rather than supporting from below), but basically it is as I said. Place the mic at a height level with the forehead (or slightly higher), and tilt down towards the mouth. You may find you get a better result by not even bothering to tilt the mic down -- the off-axis pickup will also tend to help tame the sibiilant frequencies.

If anyone would like to listen to how bad this recording is here is a sample to download.

There's a lot of ring-y room sound in there. The sibilance doesn't sound that bad to me, and a large part of it is, I suspect, the source. But moving the mic up will probably help. You can't really move it away with that much room sound.

hugh

[Jack Ruston]

Yeah...It's REALLY 'small roomy' in the worst possible way. I'm not one of those engineers that thinks that you should record vocals in a totally dry environment necessarily, but this is THE advert for room treatment. Sort that out first and then lets see what you end up with after that. It IS sibilant and it's almost as if the room is making the sibilance worse for me, but lets just see.

J

[distaudio]

You are correct. That sample was recorded in a very small room. I'm talking 1.5m x 1.5m x 3m high.

I have recently moved my mic recording position to my studio which unfortunately has the same high ceiling which is probably causing that ringy sound you are refering too.

If you wish to see my current studio setup here is a link to my progress in that regard.

Thanks go to Frank for the help with this.

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showf ... t=1#696459

And I thank you all for your help with this matter too. After hearing your opinions of it perhaps the silibance issues aren't as bad as my girlfriend first pointed out

I shall record the vocals again in the vocal area which you can see in the post that I have linked to and I will upload it for you all to have another listen.

Thanks

[Jack Ruston]

The high ceiling is a good thing. It'll be the walls that are most of the problem.

[distaudio]

Alright. I will give it a shot with the new "area" and see if the results are a little more tame.

Thank you all once again.

[Steve Hill]

I'm a bit late on this, having been busy in the studio, but one thing to watch out for is adding reverb to sibilant vocals, tuning an "SSS" into a decaying "SSSsssss" sound!

You can minimise this if you (quite savagely) EQ the reverb return signal, filtering off everything above about 4.5k and also (unrelated to sibilance, but good for getting rid of mud) everything below say 175Hz. In most cases you will still be getting all of the benefits of reverb in the area you want it.

[Jack Ruston]

Good point...another way to deal with it is to put a de-esser in front of the reverb. In fact that's often a good idea full stop.

J

[The Elf]

one thing to watch out for is adding reverb to sibilant vocals, tuning an "SSS" into a decaying "SSSsssss" sound!

I've spent over half my recording life actively trying to get that sound - I'm blowed if I'm going to give up on it now I have it!

George Michael will be turning in his cubicle!

[distaudio]

Great suggestion. I will have to try that as the initial complaint from my "test listener" that they thought the silibance was too much and the reverb was over the top.

Those two combined probably caused them to come to that conclusion.