XR18 or CQ-20B

[ST39]

4 MEMBER BAND

I am from the EU and never found any EU forums and only talked on US ones so I hope that I will have more luck here.

We were looking at a good digital mixer for a decent price so we can also run wired in ears the XR18 (744€ with hard case) and CQ-20B (1044€ with the A&H branded soft case)

For the prices I couldn't find anything comparable (I didn't take into consideretion XR18-like mixers like the Midas or Mackie etc.) And mixers double or three times the price like the X32 or A&H Qu-16 etc.

I am wondering which one would be easier to learn to mix on, what are the advantages and disatvantages of both, is there an easy way for everybody to mix their in ears from their phones for example etc. Just general help on what to pick. And also the Swissonic Basic Router MKII would be useful when running it with a laptop and/or tablet.

[Philbo King]

You'd need something with 8 aux buses to get 4 stereo headphone feeds, or 4 aux busses to get 4 mono headphone feeds.

A digital mixer would be most practical for both size & cost. (An analog console with 8 aux buses would be starting to get into 'big fella' territory.)

But all digital mixers have a learning curve whose duration depends on your experience. So don't order one a week before a gig; plan to devote time to learning it & reading the docs...

If it were me, I'd look into the Zoom Livetrack L12:
https://zoomcorp.com/en/jp/digital-mixe ... trak-l-12/

The XR18 is no longer in production, if that matters to you.

There used to be a gizmo made just for this purpose, but sadly went out of business: www.jamhub.com
By all reports, the build quality wasn't great.

[The Elf]

Much as I am happy with my XR18, it isn't a device I would want to 'learn to mix' on. For learning I would want as many hands-on controls available as possible, and the XR18 is the antithesis of that.

But it is a great device for a compact, capable stage system, especially with the personal mixers attached. I like the type and number of connections and the flexible routing system. I hate the control application, which has me scratching my head each time I come back to it. I try to treat my XR18 as a 'set once, leave forever' device.

I would also agree with above, that the Zoom LiveTrack would be worth a look.

I'm not voting above, as I don't know anything about the other device.

[Drew Stephenson]

As well as the Zoom mentioned above it might be worth looking at the PreSonus StudioLive 16.0.2, and the A&H CQ18.
They might be over-budget where you are though.

[Wonks]

The XR18 is no longer in production, if that matters to you.

I know they were almost impossible to get hold off for quite a while, but they are now freely available again in the UK, Europe and the US.

I will point out that (unless it’s been updated recently), the in-built wifi on the XR18 is dreadful, so be prepared to use an external wifi access point if you want reliable wifi control of it from tablets or phones.

[Wonks]

According to the SOS review of the CQ18T, the CQ20 is basically the same as that in terms of I/O and control features, but without the touch screen and in a stage box format. The CQ20 also has the benefit of an IEC power connector, not the wall-wart PSU of the CQ18 (a dreadful choice IMO).

Given the CQ18 has only 5 buttons to assist operation, you’re reliant on the touch screen anyway, so the CQ20 with a tablet would be pretty much the same, provided the wifi connection remains good.

The Zoom Livetrack L12 certainly has the benefit of 5 stereo headphone (or monitor) feeds, ideal for in-ears). But it isn’t as easy to use as an analogue desk and a friend’s band changed from an L20 to an XR18 as they found the Livetrack too confusing and the XR18 much easier to use. But I’m sure others will have found the opposite.

It’s what suits you that matters, so it really is best to try out these mixers before you buy, rather than go on people’s recommendations.

[Music Wolf]

The Zoom Livetrack L12 certainly has the benefit of 5 stereo headphone (or monitor) feeds, ideal for in-ears). But it isn’t as easy to use as an analogue desk and a friend’s band changed from an L20 to an XR18 as they found the Livetrack too confusing and the XR18 much easier to use.

I also changed from an L12 to an XR-18.

I use copper wire connection rather than wi-fi. I need to have a USB connection anyway for audio transfer from my laptop, so running an ethernet cable along side is no big deal. Sometimes I connect an old Apple Airport Express router if we need remote operation.

Whilst the L12 has physical faders they are not motorised, so recall / moving between mix busses is a bit of a pain.

[resistorman]

I don't think digital stage boxes are any harder to learn to use than analog mixers, the control interfaces are very clear. I'd go so far as to say it's easier, especially for people that have grown up using tablets and phones.

There are a few things to recommend the CQ, a good internal router and onboard multitrack recording are two of them.

[Sam Spoons]

It's the multiple layers/pages that make it more difficult than a 'knob for everything' analogue mixer paradigm.

If I was buying a digital desk for an inexperienced sound guy/band I would go with Mackie as, IME, the Mackie Master Fader app is the most intuitive by some margin*. I was an early adopter with a DL1608 which I still have and still use. The 1608 has, I think, been discontinued and current base model is the DL16S. Like the XR18, CQ20B and DL1608** it has only 8 analogue outputs so, unless you this mixer for IEMs alone, you could not run 4 x stereo IEMs and a FoH feed. If you run some of your IEM's in mono they would be fine.

* For a certain value of 'intuitive' there is a learning curve with them all.

** The DL16S/1608 lacks the stereo line inputs of the others, only having 16 mic/line inputs, if that matters.

[Dave Rowles]

From what I understand, the CQ-20B is more geared to bands/artists wanting something to mix themselves on, and so has a few "mixing assist" features. So that may be the way to go.

[shufflebeat]

I regularly use the Mackie dl1608 and the A&H Qu-Pac and am familiar with the Behringer XR18 through “guesting” on other people’s systems.

I suspect the A&H would be the most user-friendly but, to be honest, I don’t feel there’s a huge difference between them.

I agree with Herr Spoons that the Mackie app is the most accessible and pleasing to the nervous system but I’d also add that I’ve recently adopted the Mix Station app which has three very distinct advantages:

* My old iPad3’s (iOS 9.3.5) which had dropped off the update conveyer belt are now very much back in service as M/S seems to run on a clockwork mouse.

* I can set up custom layouts so I can do a proper mix on the iPad then control the mixer (mutes, FX on/off, etc.) from an old Android phone on a clamp on my mic stand with only the controls I need on the screen - classy!

* I can set up the same layouts for any of the mixers M/S works with (all of the above) so all mixers present an identical UI if I choose to set them up.

It’s a bit of initial faff but it’s cheaper and much more fun than Call of Duty.

[Dave71]

I’m in the middle of weighing up the pros and cons of several digital rack mixers and have used (in order of how much I’ve used them ) mackie, A&H, behringer, soundcraft and presonus.

Currently the cq20b is coming out in top due to the channel count, and the option to use a configurable foot switch. Currently lacks any mute or view groups using the native app, but I’m sure this will get sorted. No dca/vca or subgroups either but in a small band situation, that’s not really an issue.

I do prefer the mackie app though, very intuitive with more features, ideal for band members doing their own mixes etc…but lacks the simple addition of a stereo input in addition to the 16 pre amps…and no foot switch.

[AlecSp]

[CQ20B] Currently lacks any mute or view groups using the native app, but I’m sure this will get sorted. No dca/vca or subgroups either but in a small band situation, that’s not really an issue.

I'm less confident that these features will come in due course. While I'd be surprised if there was any technical reason why they weren't there, I suspect A&H want to keep the market segmentation. After all, if they add DCAs, mute groups, subgroups, custom layouts, and repatchable inputs (all things the much cheaper XR18 offers), then the CQB starts to look rather more powerful than the QU-SB, which is in their higher market segment.

[Sam Spoons]

For a while Mackie offered an older, more basic version of Master Fader which I was happy to recommend to digital mixer newbs and which TBH offered 90% of what I actually used in the later more sophisticated versions so I could have happily lived with it. It fell by the wayside when the iOS versions left it behind which was a bit of a shame as Mackie could have had two mixers for the price of one, the serious version and the basic newbs version. The addition of Mix Station, initially a third party app which could run on Android (the Mackie app was iOS only) was a big bonus as it offered a different operating paradigm and IIRC it became available for X32 mixers has since been adopted by Behringer as the official app for their XR/X-Air series.

[shufflebeat]

+1

Minor point of information - the app title is Mixing Station, I called it Mix Station earlier but I think I got away with it.

[Sam Spoons]

Just laziness on my part

[shufflebeat]

Just laziness on my part

Well, at least we temporarily saved ourselves the inconvenience of typing three potentially extraneous characters, so all is not lost.

[Sam Spoons]

Is it just me or does anybody else copy and paste short phrases to save typing them again (despite it probably taking longer) if you change you mind about the way you've worded a post?

[shufflebeat]

Is it just me or does anybody else copy and paste short phrases to save typing them again (despite it probably taking longer) if you change you mind about the way you've worded a post?

Not really.

I suppose we can temporarily save ourselves the inconvenience of typing three or four potentially extraneous characters but I can’t say I’ve ever actually done it myself.