Recording wind band with a wall right behind the conductor

[tacitus]

I’m going to record some, most or all of a wind-band workshop day with a top army bandmaster (I think), at the end of February. I’m lining up a new Zoom F6 and plan to have a single mike stand between the conductor and the front row, which will be a semicircle facing the conductor. Usually in that venue there’ll be a second semicircle behind that, parts of a third one further back and a load of percussion behind all that.

As the title says, the conductor stands with their back to a wall, so mike positioning is compromised and the venue isn’t one you’d normally choose to record in. Nice rehearsal space; you can hear everyone nicely, but there’s no real option to lay the band out differently. The room’s rectangular, and in the layout I described the band sits facing the conductor who’s in the middle of the long wall. The middle of the opposite long wall continues in another rectangular part of the room making a “T” shape, and the percussion usually goes back a way into that.

So putting the mike stand in front of the conductor seems the obvious choice. With a couple of pairs on a bar, I should be able to get a reasonable balance. Ambience is another issue! Currently I think I’ll get what I can balance-wise then perhaps add a touch of reverb in edit, if that doesn’t just make a calamity out of an inconvenience.

With this wall just where you’d expect an audience or a congregation, and space, is there any other option that’s simple to do on-site? I’m hoping not to have to do much messing about on the day and will be going in to a rehearsal in the next couple of weeks for a test run. Beyond that, well, what? All ideas welcome (though I’m out of skyhooks and low on fairy dust!).

[Bob Bickerton]

Sounds tricky alright and I don’t have a lot to add other than make sure the client and conductor know it’s challenging and for them to expect you to have to trial some set-ups. My first approach would be to do as you say, try and mount an array above the conductor. Maybe place stand to one side with a boom to avoid conductor sight-line issues?

I’ve been tempted in situations like this to mount a couple of high quality (DPA) lavs on a hat the conductor can wear and say “You balance, the mics will do the rest!”

Good luck!

Bob

[Nazard]

So putting the mike stand in front of the conductor seems the obvious choice

Perhaps not. Placing anything substantial between a conductor and the players is a no-no as far as I am concerned, unless it is high up and out of the sight line. I've done some conducting, albeit years ago, and anything which restricts the conductor's sight of the players won't work. And knowing the military well, you may be adding a few words to your vocabulary!

[Hugh Robjohns]

If the conductor really is back-to-the-wall, I'd put the mics on the wall too — pressure zone style. Works best with SDC omnis (or lavalier electrets) taped to the wall as 2/3/4 spaced mics (depending on width of ensemble)

If the mics of a conventional stereo array are a small distance away from the wall the strong rear reflections are likely to create comb-filtering issues.

In an acoustically challenging room you might be better off abandoning the classic self-balanced stereo array approach, and instead go for close section miking which you can balance and pan in the mix, with added reverb to taste to help glue it back together. Six channels should give you a fighting chance.

[tacitus]

I take your point, Naz, but it’s not a bulky stand - just 3m or so of vertical pole and I’ve done this before. There’s not enough pole to interrupt the gaffer’s sightline to any player, and a couple of inches would move any player who feels they can’t see the conductor (not many of those in most wind bands!

When I’ve done it like that in the past, it’s usually been a last-minute plan to record a live gig. With semicircles of players round the conductor you can guarantee some sort of a space there. I doubt there’ll be room behind the conductor; I used to conduct there regularly and I could literally lean back on the wall. A team from the local college managed to record a CD there with a m/s rig behind the conductor, with this band. But it was 15 years ago, with only 35 in the band and hardly any percussion. The sound wasn’t good and when I copied the rig to record an extra track with a soloist, it wasn’t easy, either. I’m expecting there to be over 50 there this time round, with loads of percussion. They’re not expecting release-quality recording but I’d like it to be sweet enough to be asked again.
The only alternative that springs to mind is mikes at the ends (or thereabouts) of the long wall, pointing in, though they’ll be behind the players.

I guess I’ll have to take a carload of stands and mess about, but a single stand with a wide bar is definitely the neatest. I was planning to use any or all of my Line Audio mikes (pairs of OM1, CM3 and CM4), as they’re small, black and sound good on winds.

STOP PRESS!

Supposing I CAN squeeze the stand in behind the conductor, I then have an extremely close wall to cope with. If I put my Line Audio CM3s and/or CM4s up instead of omnis, will that avoid some of the “wall-iness”? Obviously I can try it, but I won’t get much time, I’m thinking.

[tea for two]

I was going to suggest boundary mics butt didn't want to appear more of a div than I already am. Relieved to find I'm not quite such a div after Hugh's post.
Taping Lav's to the wall could be an option if you have some decent Lav's.

[Sam Spoons]

see above... When I first read this I though the obvious answer was to use boundary effect mics but didn't post 'cos Hugh got there first but that's what I would do. You don't need proprietary boundery mics, they are just an omni capsule on a solid backplate, a couple or more omnis 'stuck to the wall' above the conductor's head will do the job. If they are touching the wall that negates the phase issues you would be trying to minimise by using directional mics.

[Wonks]

You have a close wall to deal with regardless, so you’ll always have phase issues. especially with omnis. Making them boundary mics is probably the best option by far.

[tacitus]

Interesting suggestion, Hugh; thank you for that, and everyone else’s comments on that. I have some of the old Radio Shack PZMs somewhere - they haven’t been out for years. But you’re saying I could tape a selection of SDC omnis to the wall? I have a pair of Line Audio omnis, a pair of NT55s, a pair of AT4022s and three Oktava MK 012s. Any of those would be better than aged, cheapo PZMs?

I’m not sure about section miking as the numerous instruments in the band (flutes, clarinets; trumpets to some extent) get stretched out in a line from here to Hartlepool. Perhaps another pair to pick up the back row/percussion better? Everyone tells me to keep the mike count down but even I can see this is going to be a special case. So 3 omnis, say, on the wall (how high? No idea) and a pair for the back row, maybe CM3s or CM4s in a NOS array? Just guessing wildly here …

[tea for two]

With taping to the wall I would thawd approx 4m-5m high up if the room allows else 3m, AB spacing approx 50cm apart little less also fine 35cm-40cm, your NT55 pair (higher SPL than your Oktava 012) with their NT45C cardioids would pick up less from the wall also less from the not so ideal room.
Thereafter adding atmosphere later in post.

[tacitus]

Well, I’ve just been out to the kit store and retrieved 3 Realistic PZMs. I found AA batteries in them: a Duracell, use by 1996, slightly leaked and bulged, an Energiser, use by 1999 and very slightly bulged, then a Tandy, no date at all and in perfect nick. I could do product shots with it!

Moving on, I’d put XLRs on them when I got them, and at some stage I used pairs of 1/2AA Lithium batteries to get more voltage. A quick Google found this recommendation still around, so I’ve ordered some and will have a bash (literally!) on the piano with them taped to the wall. Also with SDCs taped to the wall and anything else I can think of before I go in to a rehearsal for a test.

So I have some direction now. And I have a pair of AKG D190 mikes I found in the same box, with RS Components ID on them. Must have been a “present” from work … Not sure what I’ll do with them, bearing in mind I have SM57s and 58s for hammering jobs.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I have some of the old Radio Shack PZMs somewhere - they haven’t been out for years.

Test them before relying on them. The electret capsules may have hone noisy with reduced headroom by now...

But you’re saying I could tape a selection of SDC omnis to the wall?

Whether you can physically tape them there depends on the wall, the paint, the tape, and the house safety rules — you obviously don't want mics falling onto the front row of the band. But the principle of placing an omni flush against a wall to create a pressure-zone or boundary layer mic is well known.

In theory, the smaller the mic's diameter the better as that puts the centre of the diaphragm closer to the wall and best results are at 5mm or less — which is why lavalier mics work so well. But you can get away with it on mics up to 20mm diameter, or so.

You don't have to tape the mic; you could arrange a mic stand to hold the mic against the wall. Just make sure the stand doesn't move (ie, not on a bouncy floor) and the wall doesn't vibrate!

I have a pair of Line Audio omnis, a pair of NT55s, a pair of AT4022s and three Oktava MK 012s. Any of those would be better than aged, cheapo PZMs?

Try them and see!

I’m not sure about section miking as the numerous instruments in the band (flutes, clarinets; trumpets to some extent) get stretched out in a line from here to Hartlepool. Perhaps another pair to pick up the back row/percussion better?

You know the setup; I dont, but thecaim is to capture everyone with an acceptable balance. So rig the front micdcand have a listen for what's missing or too weak, and add more mics to support as necessary. But by the description I suspect some mics further back will be essential.

Everyone tells me to keep the mike count down but even I can see this is going to be a special case.

A simple stereo array only works in ideal circumstances, where the ensemble delivers a well balanced sound, and the room acoustics work nicely. That doesn't appear to be your situation here...

So 3 omnis, say, on the wall (how high? No idea)...

Depends on the room, the layout, and how safely you can place and fix the mics. The higher they go the more even the balance between front and back of the band, and the more room acoustic you capture... but I'd probably aim for 3m for starters and have a listen.

...and D190s work quite nicely on percussion in my experience.

[tacitus]

Many thanks, Hugh, and all who are contributing.

I will be testing the PZMs tomorrow; I'm worried they may have deteriorated, too. I can put them up alongside a pair of ordinary omnis next to my piano and see what happens.

If I use tape it'll have to be low-tack, so probably only for the lightest mics. Not sure how much higher than about 3m I'll be able to manage - another thing to look at with a test run on site. I can probably mackle up something with the stands and booms I have. Not a great problem with vibration, nice solid floor, but obviously not a lot of room. I can test some rigs against our kitchen wall which obligingly reaches about 15' at the ridge.

[Aural Reject]

I’ve been in a similar position in the Brighouse & Rastrick band room…about a foot behind the MD’s head and up…I was trialling NOS-like CM3s at the time. Worked OK.

[jimjazzdad]

If I use tape it'll have to be low-tack, so probably only for the lightest mics. Not sure how much higher than about 3m I'll be able to manage - another thing to look at with a test run on site. I can probably mackle up something with the stands and booms I have. Not a great problem with vibration, nice solid floor, but obviously not a lot of room. I can test some rigs against our kitchen wall which obligingly reaches about 15' at the ridge.

If you use tape, make sure it is the 'genuine, pro-quality' gaffer's tape. Over here, across the pond, it goes for about $30 a roll. Try a bit on an innocuous spot - maybe in a corner by a baseboard - to make sure it doesn't lift any paint when it comes off. It shouldn't; I have even used it for BLMs on the underside of the lid of a concert grand pianos (with permission).

[tacitus]

So how did it go? I recorded a clarinet choir rehearsal I was conducting, in a different venue but still with my back to the wall (story of my life. They only come because my cake’s better than my conducting). That was not bad, but a much smaller ensemble. So the next day I went to the regular Concert Band rehearsal and put up the two PZMs that are still noise-free on the wall behind the conductor, then a Samson boundary mike I got severely cheap from Amazon and another I got a bit less cheap, just inside where the room narrows to form the T-shape. This was to get a bit more definition on the lower brass and percussion. All fine, all recorded and just as I was clearing up, one of the players pointed out that as there would be a public play through at the end of day the band would be facing the other way …

Then there was doubt about numbers being sufficient to run the day at all, so I prepared a selection of mikes, stands and the rest.

On the day, they’d hauled in a load of extra players. The band was facing the other way and I used a pair of Line Audio CM4s in NOS format for the band and a CM3 to pick up the guest conductor’s words of wisdom, should there be any (this is supposed to be going on the band’s media platforms ti show what we do.

I think it’s all OK, but I was under the weather all day and retired to my bed after the session and will be checking the recording later today, hopefully. No danger of scooping an award, but it should sound exactly like the rehearsal it was.

So thanks, everyone, for your help even if it’s being saved for the next tricky room.

This was in the Northampton music service building (NMPAT) and the guest conductor was Clare Lawrence, RAF and now Army. Of course she won us all over when she said that of all the places in the world she’s been since, it was seriously special for her to be back at her original source of training. Whether true or not, everyone played their socks off for her, including mt when I took up my bassoon in the afternoon.

That’s all; carry on …

[tea for two]

This was in the Northampton music service building (NMPAT) and the guest conductor was Clare Lawrence, RAF and now Army. Of course she won us all over when she said that of all the places in the world she’s been since, it was seriously special for her to be back at her original source of training. Whether true or not, everyone played their socks off for her, including mt when I took up my bassoon in the afternoon.

Lubbly. Also a reminder soft skills go along way in getting a decent performance : hand in hand with engineering skills.

just as I was clearing up, one of the players pointed out that as there would be a public play through at the end of day the band would be facing the other way …

A spinal tap moment

I don't think we can let this go without a Brassed Off reference : Concierto d' orange juice lol (the filum topic is poignant of course).
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zo8hIc7Dp ... FyYW5qdWV6