Amp for Cello

[twotoedsloth]

Hello,

A colleague of mine is looking to purchase a pickup and amp for his fine Amati cello. Obviously he won't be mounting the pickup internally. I advised him to purchase the DPA 4099 microphone, but I'm less sure on which amp to pair it with. Does anyone have a suggestion for a cello amp? Price is not an issue.

Many thanks,

Peter

[Sam Spoons]

I'd be looking at AER first, the 'industry standard' is the Compact 60 mk2/3. There are other alternatives but the AER gets the job done with a mic or a contact pickup or UST/SBT. As an alternative to the DPA's (which are superb) he may like to consider something like a K&K Big Twin pickup into a Tone Dexter preamp and either an acoustic amp like the AER or an active/powered PA cab. The Tone Dexter is capable of making piezo or other contact type pickups sound almost indistinguishable from a mic (TBF it can take some work to get the best result but the best is very good indeed).

[Wonks]

Given a cello is a reasonably loud instrument to start with, how much amplification is going to be required? What sort of venues?

Will the (nearly £1200) AER be loud enough? I've only used one once a long time ago and though excellent quality sound, I don't remember it being that loud (and AER have loads of technical figures for all the different inputs and outputs on the unit but no SPL). A cello goes down to C2 (65.4Hz) and I feel the AER might struggle with that.

[shufflebeat]

+1 to all the above wisdom. I’d only add that I’ve used Impulse Response loaders (Tonedexter is based on IR technology) on a variety of violin/viola/cellos and can vouch for the effectiveness of the outcome.

Until recently the choice was between mic (realistic sound) and pickup (consistency and high volume capability) but the original Fishman Aura blender began what has become quite the revolution in acoustic amp’ing.

This is worth a peek:

https://youtu.be/qOKzFvyWqns

Coupled with a decent piezo pickup the Tonedexter, other IR solution can make a very usable sound. The Tonedexter folks have recently release v2 which I’ve been following with interest as a keen v1 user.

On the subject of amps - a fiddlist friend of mine picked up an Acoustic Image amp (can’t remember model) and swears by it and he is a particularly fussy bugger, however, I agree with both Sam and Wonks above that for higher volume a modern powered PA speaker is required but many are available.

[Bob Bickerton]

I might be mistaken, but my understanding is that the Amati cello in question, described as ‘fine’, could be 400 years old and consequently the owner would probably not want pickups let alone and end pin jack anywhere near the thing.

DPA 4099 would be the only option (if you want quality) but the amp will be more problematic.

Perhaps the OP could enlighten us as to the application and genre being played?

Does the amp need to be discreet? Will the signal be processed, I.e. effects.

I’m almost thinking a high quality studio monitor such as a Neumann KH 150. You need a small mixer too of course and placement might be challenging.

Bob

[Murray B]

I've never tried to amplify a cello. But it makes good sense to have a system that can amplify a wide range of frequencies.

I'd recommend getting the pick-up / mic system sorted then experimenting with a few options before buying anything. Options that come to my mind:

Using a preamp of some kind - perhaps an LR Baggs Para DI and a good quality powered speaker. The Baggs DI's a couple of hundred quid and a decent speaker from the likes of RCF / Yamaha could add at least another £400 -500

A Phil Jones Bass Combo, depending on how loud it needs to be, the BG120 might work well - also give the option to run an extension cab increase volume / coverage. £650 ish for the amp and add another £300 for an extension cab if required.

[shufflebeat]

…the Amati cello in question, described as ‘fine’, could be 400 years old…

Well, at least it’s not a new one.

To be clear, I’m not suggesting major, or minor, surgery. Connectors can be attached invisibly with Velcro/cable ties and pickups can be attached temporarily or sandwiched between bridge/body with no adhesives involved. I should concede that I have no idea how big or significant string and bridge removal is on a cello, I’d assume it could have a significant effect on tone. I’m just thinking of it as an oversized arch-top guitar.

[shufflebeat]

My limited experience of cellos in an amplified context (string quartets behind singers - more common than you might imagine) suggests a wide dynamic range needs to be accommodated as well as wide Hz bandwidth if you are to retain transparency.

If a mic is to be used then maybe the feedback resistant features of a small “sub & column” might be worth considering, although the benefits relate more to higher frequencies rather than low which might be relevant.

[Dave Rowles]

Without context as to why we need to amplify the cello, most suggestions and options are a bit useless. We're also a little light on info about budget. I know you're looking at a DPA, so I would deduce that we're not looking at low end cost.

My preference is for the 4099 to be on the low string side, pointed at the f hole. The clip that attaches to the strings can accommodate that, but I'd sling it below the strings instead of above. If it was then not going into a PA, I'd probably want an EQ of some description, and then into a PA style speaker, possibly RCF NX912SMA or similar (I only quote that one as I've got a few recently and they are very smooth, which would suit a cello).

That may be overkill for the situation, but without more info, it's hard to make better choices

[tea for two]

To the OP if you do get the DPA 4099 you are prolly already aware DPA has handy guide on how to mic a Cello with their mic, alongside mic'ing other instruments.
https://www.dpamicrophones.com/mic-univ ... ic-a-cello

[Bob Bickerton]

Just for reference, if this is a genuine Nicolò Amati cello (not a copy) it could be worth upwards of US$500,000 and, for fairly obvious reasons, you wouldn't use velcro or mess around with the bridge and you would most certainly want the highest possible quality of microphone and system to replicate its sound.

I'm curious to know the application - quite possibly a modern composition that requires amplification, even effects, but hopefully we'll hear about that.

I'd imagine the only intervention possible would be a DPA 4099 mounted on its bespoke string mount, so the only contact between the instrument and the microphone is at the strings (but you still need to figure out cable management).

Again dependent on application, I'd be thinking a good cardioid or hypercardioid SDC on a stand would be preferable - cellists don't move around much!

Bob

[Sam Spoons]

Good points Bob, and if the instrument is in that class then it's unlikely it will be in an environment that needs greater levels or feedback resistance than a DPA4099 can deliver*. But if you are using a DPA and budget is concomitant with a $½m instrument then I would revise my suggestion and advise a Bose L series line array as the only sensible option. Maximum volume using a mic is always going to be limited by the feedback threshold but an L1 of some kind will be as good as anything and better than most in terms of both sound fidelity and max volume.

That said any mic as close to the instrument as an attached DPA is going to compromise the sound compared to a good mic in a stand a metre or two distant (from which the Bose may sill deliver but feedback becomes more of a potential issue).

[Bob Bickerton]

Yes, I was wondering about the Fohhn LX-61 with a wee sub, similar concept to the Bose L1 I suppose - but it's really to do with application!

Bob

[tea for two]

I've just now read Hugh's review of Royer SF2.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/royer-sf2
For hearing a $0.5million Cello thru an amp, via preamp, Royer SF2 mic well worth considering.

[Sam Spoons]

Yes, I was wondering about the Fohhn LX-61 with a wee sub, similar concept to the Bose L1 I suppose - but it's really to do with application!

Bob

Yes, definitely, I lusted after a Fohn rig a few years ago on the basis of your posts about them but I don't do enough now to justify the expense.

[Mike Monte]

Kind of a topic swerve:
I have mic'd cellos in string quartet/trio formats for local performances. The mics used were basic by industry standards (Senn 835) but I got really good results with what I have worked with..
Mic placement and EQ are the key IMO.
1. I orient the mic about 6-8" away aiming towards the F hole on the bass (C string) side of the cello.
2. I roll-off the highs to 10 o'clock to start and then tweak from there

Doing the above is my starting point.

*IMO: Mic'ing/amplifying a VI/VA/C adds a level of "tinny-ness" to the sound. Rolling-off the highs makes the sound warmer/more natural IMO.

If an in-your-face tone/sound is the goal, then go with whatever suits your taste.

I have found that many live-sound techs have no clue.... (It never occurs to them to go up close and listen to the instrument acoustically first, and then replicate the sound at a louder level through a PA..)

..and yes, I play in a professional orchestra...

[twotoedsloth]

Hello,

Thanks for all of your kind insight.

Yes, it is a "real" Amati, though I think it's value is closer to $100k-$150k.

My colleague is looking to perform some more modern works where the composer has requested amplification. As I said, he most definitely will not be mounting a pickup or mic internally.

I initially thought the AER amp was the way to go, but they are extremely rare in Canada, I can't find a shop that carries one in Montreal.

The Bose is an interesting option, but it would be annoying to cart around, compared to a typical combo amp.

Your advice is greatly appreciated.

Peter

[Wonks]

The L1 collapses to a very manageable package, very much small combo size.

But I’d still want to know more about the situation/details of the performance.

Are effects involved?

Is it a one-off or a series of performances?

If just one or two gigs, would hiring a high quality PA be more cost-effective than buying something?

[Sam Spoons]

Hello,

Thanks for all of your kind insight.

Yes, it is a "real" Amati, though I think it's value is closer to $100k-$150k.

My colleague is looking to perform some more modern works where the composer has requested amplification. As I said, he most definitely will not be mounting a pickup or mic internally.

I initially thought the AER amp was the way to go, but they are extremely rare in Canada, I can't find a shop that carries one in Montreal.

The Bose is an interesting option, but it would be annoying to cart around, compared to a typical combo amp.

Your advice is greatly appreciated.

Peter

What Wonky said above but I would add that I would be less inclined to suggest the AER if using a decent mic for the job as the AER's mic input is optimised for a live vocal mic and may lack sufficient gain to do a good job on an instrument.

[Bob Bickerton]

Thanks for giving more context. Just a cheap Amati then

Good questions from Wonks.

Dependent on levels etc, I’m wondering about the Bose S1 (https://www.bose.ca/en/p/portable-pa/s1 ... ELESS.html) I have used them myself for delicate acoustic instrument amplification and it would be quite discreet visually.

The downside is that the mic inputs do not provide phantom power, but an excellent solution there would be the Eventide Mixing Link (https://www.eventideaudio.com/pedals/mixinglink/) which has a very good onboard pre-amp and an effects loop should that be required.

This is a system I’ve used myself (all battery powered) on occasion and it’s worked very well. Easy to add delay, reverb and loop effects should that be required.

Bob

[shufflebeat]

Just for reference, if this is a genuine Nicolò Amati cello (not a copy) it could be worth upwards of US$500,000 and, for fairly obvious reasons, you wouldn't use velcro or mess around with the bridge and you would most certainly want the highest possible quality of microphone and system to replicate its sound.

Ee - it’s a different bloody world.

You’re absolutely right, Velcro, ‘leccy tape and 6” nails are all out. It seems the DPA attached with angel spit is the only appropriate solution.

And careful getting on and off the bus, even at $150k.

[Dave Rowles]

Yes, it is a "real" Amati, though I think it's value is closer to $100k-$150k.

My colleague is looking to perform some more modern works where the composer has requested amplification. As I said, he most definitely will not be mounting a pickup or mic internally.
.
.
The Bose is an interesting option, but it would be annoying to cart around, compared to a typical combo amp.

Anything other than a combo is usually annoying to cart around. With an instrument of that value, however, is it not going in a car?

Also, what sort of venues are you doing this in? I'm still curious as to what kind of gig warrants a player with that kind of value instrument, but doesn't have a PA or sound tech to do it.

Finally....wouldn't it be better to buy an electric cello for this? Then it can go into anything without any problems. I've got an electric violin for exactly this purpose.

[Wonks]

I was thinking the same thing yesterday (and then forgot about it). If the piece needs a non-natural sounding cello, then would a used student-level cello do, which could have pickups stuck to it?

[twotoedsloth]

Many thanks to all of you. This is a more difficult and complex decision that I had anticipated. I'm not sure of all repertoire this would be used for, but the piece that he was working on was George Crumb's Vox Balanae, Voice of the Whale.

A carbon fiber cello might be interesting, if no other reason than for the way that it looks. But when you've got access to a such a lovely instrument, it would be hard to go to a student level instrument. And if you're playing more than one piece in a normal string quartet format, you really don't want to be hauling two cellos around.

I am advising him to buy the AER Compact 60, if he needs more volume than that can provide he should probably be hiring in a proper PA rig (and engineer).

One more thing, my colleague asked about a Schertler pickup, but it looks like that one is mounted under one of the bridge feet, and it might leave a noticeable mark on the finish, and it might also affect the sound. Am I right to insist on the DPA mic?

I used to use a Fishman pickup for my double bass, which was clipped to the front of the bridge. But it really affected the sound, and not in a good way. Is there a cello pickup that attaches to the bridge, just so I can present a couple of options? I am going to suggest the DPA, but it's not my call, all I can do is encourage and suggest.

Many thanks,

Peter

[Bob Bickerton]

I would insist on the DPA - then if he choses otherwise, there can be no come back on you.

I think the hardest decision is which amp/speaker. Would it be an idea to hire the AER for trial?

Bob