Zoom H4n vs smartphone, guess which wins

[notuno]

Hi all, I recorded a performance of violin and piano with a Zoom H4n with internal mics and a smartphone, next to each other. I was surprised by the result. I attach two unprocessed fragments from both recordings, can you guess which is which? Which one do you prefer (for posting on Youtube)?

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/p99pdxv1 ... i4zj8&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebwj0f83 ... ebjv6&dl=0

[paulbyrne]

I'm not sure which is which, but I prefer 1, which seems less mushy. The level is much lower than 2 though, it would be nice to normalize the recordings before comparing them.

[James Perrett]

The first one sounds more like I would expect the H4 to sound but it would be worth doing a little processing to at least bring up the level before putting it on YouTube.

[notuno]

I'm not sure which is which, but I prefer 1, which seems less mushy. The level is much lower than 2 though, it would be nice to normalize the recordings before comparing them.

You are right, I fixed that now. Thank you.

[notuno]

The first one sounds more like I would expect the H4 to sound but it would be worth doing a little processing to at least bring up the level before putting it on YouTube.

Thanks, will reveal soon! I brought up the level of the first one so they are now comparable. What processing would you do? To me the violin sounds a bit harsh compared to the second one.

[James Perrett]

The processing really depends on the target audience. I would probably use a little limiting just to shave off the very loudest peaks. If you are doing this for a casual audience who will be listening on phones or tablets then I'd maybe add some more compression too. If you are doing this for a listening audience who know where to find the volume control then I'd change very little.

[notuno]

The processing really depends on the target audience. I would probably use a little limiting just to shave off the very loudest peaks. If you are doing this for a casual audience who will be listening on phones or tablets then I'd maybe add some more compression too. If you are doing this for a listening audience who know where to find the volume control then I'd change very little.

It's for a violin competition, so I guess the jury will listen closely, but also for casual Youtube audience (usually friends).

[Tomás Mulcahy]

Were both units in exactly the same location? It sounds like the second one was closer to a large flat surface than the first one.

[tea for two]

Num1 : more open sound compared to num2, noisier, Violin more metallic, Piano sounds as though mid n bottom is missing lol.

Num2 : more boxier sound compared to num1 possibly due to being placed on a table or chair and or automatic software noise suppression which also translates to lesser noise, Violin more natural compared to 1 still not that natural, Piano has a bit more mid n bottom compared to 1, also sounds as there's possibly automatic software limiting.

My pref is Num2 which I reckon is phone. Which specific phone though.

It's for a violin competition, so I guess the jury will listen closely

They'd be familiar with phone sound so I'd give Num2 recording to them. Also for reasons mentioned.

[AndyKsounds]

Nice to compare.

I couldn't help making the suggestion that, if it is indeed a competition, I would recommend recording more professionally. Is there a friend you could borrow an interface and decent mic from?

Or at the very least play around with the phone/zoom positioning, and damp the room of possible etc.

[notuno]

Were both units in exactly the same location? It sounds like the second one was closer to a large flat surface than the first one.

Good ear. Audio 1 was about one meter from the floor, Audio 2 was right below it, about 20cm from the floor.

[notuno]

Nice to compare.

I couldn't help making the suggestion that, if it is indeed a competition, I would recommend recording more professionally. Is there a friend you could borrow an interface and decent mic from?

Or at the very least play around with the phone/zoom positioning, and damp the room of possible etc.

It was a recording of a live concert with audience, that I will then submit to a competition, so there was little time/room for setting up. It has to be unconspicuous, at most a pair of small stereo mics connected to the Zoom.

[notuno]

Num1 : more open sound compared to num2, noisier, Violin more metallic, Piano sounds as though mid n bottom is missing lol.

Num2 : more boxier sound compared to num1 possibly due to being placed on a table or chair and or automatic software noise suppression which also translates to lesser noise, Violin more natural compared to 1 still not that natural, Piano has a bit more mid n bottom compared to 1, also sounds as there's possibly automatic software limiting.

My pref is Num2 which I reckon is phone. Which specific phone though.

It's for a violin competition, so I guess the jury will listen closely

They'd be familiar with phone sound so I'd give Num2 recording to them. Also for reasons mentioned.

ok, you win! Num1 was the Zoom H4N, placed about 3m from the violinist at 120cm height from the floor. Num2 was a Pixel 6a phone, placed under the Zoom, about 20cm from the floor. I was surprised at how good the phone sounds.

[tea for two]

Aha. This saved me purchasing h4n ta muchly.
Did you use giggles standard recording app or some other app on pixel 6a phone.

A few months earlier a person posted on ere SoS foruume a church organ recording with h4n which sounded alright : so it's prolly more to do with what's being recorded, a loud source church organ, rock band h4n will prolly be alright, a quieter source as piano violin not so much. If you wanted to you could record a loud music source with h4n and pixel 6a to hear how they compare.

[notuno]

Aha. This saved me purchasing h4n ta muchly.
Did you use giggles standard recording app or some other app on pixel 6a phone.

A few months earlier a person posted on ere SoS foruume a church organ recording with h4n which sounded alright : so it's prolly more to do with what's being recorded, a loud source church organ, rock band h4n will prolly be alright, a quieter source as piano violin not so much. If you wanted to you could record a loud music source with h4n and pixel 6a to hear how they compare.

This was just the standard video recording button of the Pixel camera. I then separated out the audio with Quicktime. For years I've been recording this kind of performances with a DSLR camera with prime lens, and audio with the Zoom H4, then putting them together. Seeing the video and audio quality of the Pixel I'm tempted to just use the phone.

Good ides trying with a loud source. I will do a comparison soon by recording a symphonic orchestra, stay tuned.

[James Perrett]

Aha. This saved me purchasing h4n ta muchly.
Did you use giggles standard recording app or some other app on pixel 6a phone.

As you have a U-44 already you don't need an H4. The U-44 with a mobile phone, the XYH-6 mics and the USB Audio Recorder app make a decent portable setup. The U-44 runs for about 5 hours on its own batteries or even longer if powered from a Pixel 6a.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

I was surprised at how good the phone sounds.

Yes in terms of frequency response, polar pattern, noise floor etc it is very very close to the H4. However, a cheap mic placed carefully will always beat an expensive one placed badly (such as near the floor). Big advantage of the H4 is you can monitor the signal with sealed headphones as you move it around to find the best position.

[Arpangel]

If I had to choose, it would be No 1, but both recordings lack bottom-end, and low-mid's, and the stereo image is skewed.
Not being funny, but given the type of music, I wouldn’t use either of these, and I’d say they are just on the verge of distracting the listener from the performance.
Definitely worth investigating a step up, you may be able to get away with these set-up's recording other types of music, but not in this case IMO.

[Hugh Robjohns]

There is no doubting that phone technology is little short of amazing these days.... but the real quality issue here is with the location of both recording systems, not only affecting stereo image and tonality, but also the acoustic perspective and the violin/piano balance.

But as the OP explained, he had very limited options given this was a public performance with practical restrictions on what could be done. Placing the mics so low is always going to compromise the sound to some extent.

[tea for two]

To the OP a xlr lav mic cardioid pair will be nearly as discreet as h4n, pixel6a
with decent snr i.e. low self noise and able to record 40Hz into h4n will yield better results. Worth looking into Movo xlr lav mics as they won't break the bank, I have a pair Movo xlr lav mics.

This SoS article : Recording Piano & Violin
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... olin-piano
written by Hugh and Paul in 2004 Birmingham Symphony hall is a handy reading for me also for anybody interested.

::

Aha. This saved me purchasing h4n ta muchly.
Did you use giggles standard recording app or some other app on pixel 6a phone.

As you have a U-44 already you don't need an H4. The U-44 with a mobile phone, the XYH-6 mics and the USB Audio Recorder app make a decent portable setup. The U-44 runs for about 5 hours on its own batteries or even longer if powered from a Pixel 6a.

U-44 most versatile audio interface I have. It's MS clip on mic MSH-6 I will prolly acquire.

[Arpangel]

There is no doubting that phone technology is little short of amazing these days.... but the real quality issue here is with the location of both recording systems, not only affecting stereo image and tonality, but also the acoustic perspective and the violin/piano balance.

But as the OP explained, he had very limited options given this was a public performance with practical restrictions on what could be done. Placing the mics so low is always going to compromise the sound to some extent.

It must be possible to locate the mic's better than this, if using an integrated mic/recorder set-up then cabling isn’t going to present a health and safety or visual issue.
A mic stand at about four feet, and better mic's via short cables plugged into a good handy recorder, that can deliver phantom power would be a major step-up, that wouldn’t need a separate interface. But even so, any phone compatible interface with phantom could be draped over the mic stand with no trouble.

[Hugh Robjohns]

There are always possibilities... but it comes down to the definition of 'inconspicuous' and the time available.

He'd get a great sound very inconspicuously by slinging active capsule mics from a catenary wire... but it would take a long time to rig!

Personally, I'd rig a couple of TF5s or similar small SDCs in ORTF atop a 3m single slim pole on a flat base cathedral stand. But some would complain even that was too conspicuous.

[tea for two]

Giggle pixel8 phone has audio eraser to help remove unwanted noises from a recording.
Here is a snippet sirens in the Double Bass recorded outdoors.
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/pTsGRYPaNQo

I wouldn't mind testing a pixel8 to hear what audio eraser can do in different scenarios indoors outdoors also how adversely it affects the recording of the instrument/s.

[Arpangel]

Giggle pixel8 phone has audio eraser to help remove unwanted noises from a recording.
Here is a snippet sirens in the Double Bass recorded outdoors.
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/pTsGRYPaNQo

I wouldn't mind testing a pixel8 to hear what audio eraser can do in different scenarios indoors outdoors also how adversely it affects the recording of the instrument/s.

So many people spend so much time with gizmo's trying to get rid of stuff that could have been avoided to start with. Find the right venue, use the right gear, priorities will determine those things, and if the priorities don’t suite you, don’t do it.
OK, if unexpected things happen despite the fact that you’ve done everything right, then fine, use the gizmos, and if they enable you to save a "great session" (notice the use of the word "great") then fine, it's all justifiable.
A young student scraping away on a violin, very badly, at their first exam, well, you just need to hear whats going on, people wont be concentrating on the audio quality too much, and if they are, then they’ve got their priorities wrong.

[tea for two]

Giggle pixel8 phone has audio eraser to help remove unwanted noises from a recording.
Here is a snippet sirens in the Double Bass recorded outdoors.
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/pTsGRYPaNQo

I wouldn't mind testing a pixel8 to hear what audio eraser can do in different scenarios indoors outdoors also how adversely it affects the recording of the instrument/s.

So many people spend so much time with gizmo's trying to get rid of stuff that could have been avoided to start with. Find the right venue, use the right gear, priorities will determine those things, and if the priorities don’t suite you, don’t do it.
OK, if unexpected things happen despite the fact that you’ve done everything right, then fine, use the gizmos, and if they enable you to save a "great session" (notice the use of the word "great") then fine, it's all justifiable.
A young student scraping away on a violin, very badly, at their first exam, well, you just need to hear whats going on, people wont be concentrating on the audio quality too much, and if they are, then they’ve got their priorities wrong.

Even the World Class SoS foruume recording engineers have recorded in venues where roadworks traffic leaky roof noisy roof been an issue.
Im all for gizmos if they work properly.
Synths are gizmos as are computer audio interfaces mixing desks.