Old dog with new question - USB and multitrack recording

[bandini]

Hi all - When I was obsessed with recording about 20 years ago I was doing it all though an m-audio pci soundcard in a desktop computer. That all worked fabulously for me for many years.

After being away from recording for awhile I'm messing with it again, and this time around it appears that usb recording has become the norm since everyone is using laptops rather than desktops. I never cared for usb back in the day (it always seemed really buggy) but decided to give it a try this time.

I have a well-equipped windows 7 machine and an m-audio duo with current drivers. I have now tried Adobe Audition (my old favorite) as well as Audacity and neither seem capable of multitrack recording without latency. As in: I record one track, then record another and the 2nd one is slightly off from the first.

When I search there's a lot of discussion about techniques for calculating your latency and nudging the tracks after you record them but I can't seriously believe that there's no way to just record tracks and have them line up. This is such a basic function of multitrack recording that I assume I'm just missing something. Is it the M-Audio duo? Do I need different software? Is Windows 7 the prob? Anyone care to nudge me in the right direction?

Thanks!!

[Matt Houghton]

Hi, and welcome to the SOS Forums. 20 years ago USB was OK for audio, but some of the USB interface drivers weren't so great. I was happily capturing 24+ tracks of audio through a Firewire audio interface and USB external hard drive back then.

I don't have any real familiarity with Audition or Audacity, but they're not the first names that spring to mind for multitrack audio. Still, it's possible there's a setting that needs tweaking I suppose.

Most DAW software can do what you want. And as well as sync'ing the audio recordings, you need to ensure they have automatic plug-in delay compensation switched on. Most do by default these days. Though if working with hardware attached to your converters you might need to 'ping' it manually to tell that system what the latency is.

Cockos Reaper is free to try, and after the trial it's protected with just a nag screen that politely requests you pay the modest license fee. It's great. Other options would include Pro Tools, Logic Pro, Cubase Pro, Nuendo, Studio One, Ableton, Bitwig, Digital Performer, Samplitude... the list is seemingly endless. They all have their pros and cons — ie. there isn't a single 'best' DAW.

[James Perrett]

It has been over 15 years since I used Adobe Audition for multitrack recording and I have a memory of it sometimes exhibiting the behaviour that you describe. I think it may have been one particular version that caused problems as I'm fairly sure that it worked fine sometimes.

However, I'd say that Matt's suggestion of Reaper is a good one. It works in a very similar way to Audition's multitrack view and you'll find things are in a very similar place. I made the switch shortly after Audition 2 came out. The only thing to be aware of is that right drag (which I used often in Audition) doesn't do the same thing in Reaper.

I've had no sync problems with Reaper and it offers much more versatility than Audition - although there are still one or two things, like click removal and spectral editing, where I will go back to Audition. I have it set up so that I can go to it from the right click menu in Reaper.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I never cared for usb back in the day (it always seemed really buggy)

I think I've pretty much always used USB, without any problems... but quality and reliability always came down to the USB drivers, some of which were very obviously better than others!

I have a well-equipped windows 7 machine and an m-audio duo with current drivers. I have now tried Adobe Audition (my old favorite) as well as Audacity and neither seem capable of multitrack recording without latency.

What format of driver are you using? On Windows you'll probably get the lowest latency with ASIO drivers. The DAW should take the latency into account... even in Win 7!

Avoid Audacity — it doesn't natively support ASIO drivers. I think Audition should work, but it's a bit old and clunky compared to something like Reaper which is miles better and just as easy to use (and there are a lot of users here so lots of free support — very few use Audition, and those most for editing and restoration rather than tracking).

And make sure you're using Direct monitoring in your interface when overdubbing.

[bandini]

Thanks folks!

After further research I do realize the difficulty of diagnosing something like this. What's interesting is how many gazillions of people online appear to have followed my same path: thinking hey, I'll get a cheap audio interface and be able to do simple guitar/vocal stuff or whatever, only to find that they can't sync the tracks and that the prob could be any of a zillion different factors, and before long all they're doing is hassling with technology.

I appreciate the Reaper suggestion! I'll definitely check it out. I do remember Audition not being ideal for tracking - it was always more of an editor for me. I dearly miss tracking in Cubase, which was SOO easy and reliable, but alas, my old copy of Cubase doesn't seem to work in Windows 7.

Thanks again so much for the input y'all. Sigh, I'm increasingly missing the old PCI days of computer recording. But I guess this USB thing is here to stay.

[James Perrett]

Thanks again so much for the input y'all. Sigh, I'm increasingly missing the old PCI days of computer recording. But I guess this USB thing is here to stay.

It isn't a PCI/USB thing. My Audition issues occurred with an RME PCI card which still works fine with Reaper.

[N i g e l]

I dearly miss tracking in Cubase, which was SOO easy and reliable, but alas, my old copy of Cubase doesn't seem to work in Windows 7.

If your buying new gear there maybe an edition of Cuebase bundled, worth checking. Especially if its a Yamaha/Steinberg product.

[RichardT]

Thanks again so much for the input y'all. Sigh, I'm increasingly missing the old PCI days of computer recording. But I guess this USB thing is here to stay.

It isn't a PCI/USB thing. My Audition issues occurred with an RME PCI card which still works fine with Reaper.

Yes, USB these days is absolutely reliable and extremely fast. Generally speaking, I find everything works more smoothly than it did 20 years ago.

[ef37a]

Hi Bandini and welcome. My son and I first started serious computer audio with a PCI card. The M-A 2496 and (with a few exceptions) USB has only fairly recently matched that card for low latency. However I don't think your dubbing problem is 'latency' as it is usually considered? The term means the time delay between initiating a sound, e.g. pressing a key on a MIDI keyboard, and hearing the note. I am not sure where your line up problem comes from but I think it might be an operational issue. Hugh's reference to "direct monitoring" might be a clue?

You mentioned a liking for Cubase (takes all sorts I suppose!) and you can download a basic version to try for 30 days and if you like it enough I think it is about £50. I do however agree with the others that Reaper is the way to go.

Now, I don't want to be rude but that M-A interface is a very basic model and whilst I doubt it is causing your problems a better unit might help?
For low latency and solid drivers on a budget look at the Native Instruments KA6 and the MOTU M2.

Dave.

[bandini]

Hi all - Just wanted to say much appreciated to everyone for responding, and a big thanks to those who recommended Reaper - I was hoping something obvious and simple might solve my issue and it turned out that it was the software all along! Reaper seems to have no difficulty at all with the tracks syncing, so I gotta conclude that Audition and Audacity simply don't play well with my setup for whatever reason. Live and learn!

And very good to know that USB seems to have come a long way from where it was in the early 2000s. I'll work on letting go of my old prejudices. Very grateful for everyone's input and for the Reaper suggestion. Rock on, y'all!

[The Elf]

I use an RME audio interface that ships with TotalMix, and I *never* use Direct Monitoring. I've found DM problematical in the past - I abandoned it long ago. TotalMix sorts out monitoring for me. Maybe DM is fine these days, but a decent mixer/routing application would be high on my list of requirements for an audio interface to avoid it.

USB is more than up to the task - time to stop worrying about that aspect.

I have, and use, both Reaper and Cubase. Nothing wrong with Reaper (I'm a paid-up user), but Cubase is in a different league. If you're used to the Cubase of old you should have no trouble catching up, though it will likely seem a bit overwhelming for a while.

Steinberg have just announced that a trial of Cubase 13 is now available. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how good (and, hopefully, familiar) it is.

[ef37a]

Wow! Elf, you can try Cubase 13 for 60 days! Cubase Elements 13 is just £55.
I might tell my son about this, he liked Cubase Ess6 for some tasks although he is really wedded to Samplitude ProX3. In the last six months or so he has used Reaper for MIDI work, better than Sam he finds for that.

Dave.

[alexis]

I dearly miss tracking in Cubase, which was SOO easy and reliable, but alas, my old copy of Cubase doesn't seem to work in Windows 7.

If your buying new gear there maybe an edition of Cuebase bundled, worth checking. Especially if its a Yamaha/Steinberg product.

https://www.steinberg.net/audio-interfaces/

I can vouch for the UR28M (love it), but the others should be fine too. I'd guess they all have direct monitoring with comfort reverb and more in your tracking cans, but worth checking to be sure. Anyway, you'll likely get a free entry- level (or maybe even higher) Cubase with any of them.

[The Elf]

Wow! Elf, you can try Cubase 13 for 60 days! Cubase Elements 13 is just £55.
I might tell my son about this, he liked Cubase Ess6 for some tasks although he is really wedded to Samplitude ProX3. In the last six months or so he has used Reaper for MIDI work, better than Sam he finds for that.

Worth trying out. Elements is as much as many people probably need.