Is it possible to reclaim intellectual property that has been "given away?"

[Jokersong]

I'm a new member with a big question - do I have right to reclaim music lyrics that I've written and signed an unofficial paper saying the copyright can be used by someone else?

It's a big copyright "scandal." I wrote literally dozens of super popular songs and then signed a handwritten note saying that someone and the performers of the songs could claim the music as their own. I thought it was a grand gesture for a loved one at the time but now the songs have made billions and NO ONE thinks I wrote the music but the loved one, and nothing came of it to improve our relationship so I regret doing it for free... The worst part is the loved one had blocked me on facebook (where the messages with the songs were written) so I had made a bunch of sub-accounts to message him with... Now I've forgotten the passwords for the accounts and I'm sure the one I sent the songs to has hidden the evidence... nothing against him, I did say they and the performers could claim the music as their own...

It is my hope that I can reclaim my intellectual property - I wrote enough music to last 10 years 15 years ago... I just want to be recognized!

Thanks so much...

Jokersong

P.S. I don't know how much I can say or not say by law now that the copyrights have been claimed by the performers but I wrote music that is now incredibly popular and per my permission the artists have said they wrote it... can I revoke the permission and claim my music back? PLEASE take this seriously and if I'm informed the music can be reclaimed I'll reveal what songs/albums they were (they're wildly popular)...

[Hugh Robjohns]

... I wrote literally dozens of super popular songs and then signed a handwritten note saying that someone and the performers of the songs could claim the music as their own. I thought it was a very grand gesture for a loved one at the time...

I'd have thought if you willingly signed away — in writing — any claims to them it's a done deal. It was a grand gesture, as you say, but seemingly one directed by a part of your anatomy other than your brain!

...but I'm not a music copyright lawyer, so I'd advise consulting one with a good track record in this field.

We all do stupid things in life occasionally... maybe that's yours!

...I did say they and the performers could claim the music as their own...

And if there was any doubt, you've now confirmed in public that you willingly released all your rights to all that material...

i wrote enough music to last 10 years 15 years ago... I just want to be recognized!

If I were you, I'd chalk it up to experience and start writing new material. If you're as good as you claim it shouldn't be too hard to become 'recognised' anew. And next time, get proper legal advice before signing anything else away!

[yeroc]

I think I might know a Nigerian Prince who can help you out… let me find the email he sent me…

[sonics]

If you signed away the copyright you didn't want to be recognised, surely.

I wrote literally dozens of super popular songs

So name a couple, or even one. If you are able to get copyright back then we'll find out eventually. This would be big news in the music industry!

... so I had made a bunch of sub-accounts to message him with... Now I've forgotten the passwords for the accounts

There are account recovery methods in place.

This might be believable if it were one or two songs, or one artist, but "literally dozens"?

I suppose the username is a clue to this?

[Jokersong]

My username doesn't have anything specific(hintwise) to do with the music... just my favourite playing card and then "song," because I wrote the songs.

[The Red Bladder]

I wrote literally dozens of super popular songs and then signed a handwritten note saying that someone and the performers of the songs could claim the music as their own. I thought it was a grand gesture for a loved one at the time but now the songs have made billions and NO ONE thinks I wrote the music but the loved one, and nothing came of it to improve our relationship so I regret doing it for free.

I am NOT an IP lawyer, though I have had to deal with IP issues on many occasions. Bearing that in mind - here is my 30 cents worth -

Hugh has probably nailed it.

It was a grand gesture, as you say, but seemingly one directed by a part of your anatomy other than your brain!

HOWEVER - everything depends on what you singed and all the other details around this issue. As Goethe put it "Der Teufel steckt im Detail." (The Devil is hiding in the details!)

The wording of the contracts is vital. Witnesses are vital. Other supporting evidence is vital. Also, the situation changes, depending on which jurisdiction you are in - Germany? England? Scotland? The US?

There are account recovery methods in place.

THIS! It's time to get busy!

If I were you, I'd chalk it up to experience and start writing new material. If you're as good as you claim it shouldn't be too hard to become 'recognised' anew. And next time, get proper legal advice before signing anything else away!

This is sensible advice!

BUT I would get a free half-hour with a decent IP lawyer first - and have all your facts to hand for that session. Telling him or her "Er . . . I don't know, I can't remember!" will just annoy them and makes the session useless.

I come across daft people who sign things without thinking (or even reading them in some cases!!!) far more often than I have had hot breakfasts - and I have a hot breakfast once a week!

[RichardT]

If you have signed a written document assigning your rights to others, I would think your options are very limited. You can't demonstrate duress, the terms of the agreement don't seem to be unreasonable, its probably a valid contract document and you were legally competent at the time.

But I'm not a lawyer!

As a lot of money appears to be at stake, talk to a highly regarded copyright lawyer. Take all the evidence you have. You must take a copy of the agreement document.

[Jokersong]

If you have signed a written document assigning your rights to others, I would think your options are very limited. You can't demonstrate duress, the terms of the agreement don't seem to be unreasonable, its probably a valid contract document and you were legally competent at the time.

But I'm not a lawyer!

As a lot of money appears to be at stake, talk to a highly regarded copyright lawyer. Take all the evidence you have. You must take a copy of the agreement document.

The thing is it's not even a legal contract, just a scrap of lined paper that I wrote on they could claim to have written it and receive any money the songs made... I feel like it needs to have been an official document.

[Eddy Deegan]

The thing is it's not even a legal contract, just a scrap of lined paper that I wrote on they could claim to have written it and receive any money the songs made... I feel like it needs to have been an official document.

There are too many variables here to give you any sort of meaningful answer. The exact wording on the paper, the circumstances in which it was signed, whether the owner of that paper still has it, whether they will hold you to it etc. etc.

Even if a qualified law practitioner was to answer here that would only be opinon, albeit informed.

You have no alternative other than to forget it or seek legal advice. Based on that advice either walk away or engage representation to challenge the matter.

[Hugh Robjohns]

The thing is it's not even a legal contract, just a scrap of lined paper that I wrote on they could claim to have written it and receive any money the songs made... I feel like it needs to have been an official document.

You'll never know how legal it is until tested in court. But a scrap of paper with the right words, and signed with witnesses can certainly be considered a legal document.

And you have admitted several times here in this public forum already that your intention in writing it was to assign away all your legal rights and claims over the work.

So you have completely stuffed yourself in my view....

However, if you're serious about trying to reclaim some or all of the financial gains from the work you either need to reach a 'gentleman's agreement' with the assignees, or you need to retain an experienced lawyer and be prepared to fund an expensive legal fight through the courts.

Personally, I'd recommend the cheaper option of funding a therapist instead to help you come to terms with your youthful idiocy, while simultaneously employing your self-professed lyricist talents to create new work...

Either way, whingeing here won't help anyone, and is almost certainly making your case worse...

[Wonks]

...though I'm sure Hugh could make this thread 'go away' for say 10% of the royalties?

[The Red Bladder]

The thing is it's not even a legal contract, just a scrap of lined paper that I wrote on they could claim to have written it and receive any money the songs made... I feel like it needs to have been an official document.

"Gegen die Dummheit kämpfen die Götter selbst vergeblich!"

The assignment of copyright is a complex legal issue and you have not told us which jurisdiction you are in. When it comes to contract law, even a verbal agreement is a legally binding contract in many cases.

An assignment of copyright should include the following elements:

Identification of Parties: Clearly identify the assignor and assignee.

Description of Rights: It must specify which copyright or intellectual property rights are being transferred (e.g. the specific songs).

It must be unambiguous and state clearly the intent to transfer ownership.

State any consideration to be made (e.g. payment or other benefits ).

Signatures and Date: The document signed by both parties and include the date of the agreement.

Depending on your jurisdiction, copyright law may have specific requirements for the transfer of certain rights and a scrap of paper only signed by you would not transfer rights. As always - the answer is in the details!

Once again, go see a good IP lawyer!

[RichardT]

Absolutely! You can go no further without professional advice.

[Jokersong]

The thing is it's not even a legal contract, just a scrap of lined paper that I wrote on they could claim to have written it and receive any money the songs made... I feel like it needs to have been an official document.

"Gegen die Dummheit kämpfen die Götter selbst vergeblich!"

The assignment of copyright is a complex legal issue and you have not told us which jurisdiction you are in. When it comes to contract law, even a verbal agreement is a legally binding contract in many cases.

An assignment of copyright should include the following elements:

Identification of Parties: Clearly identify the assignor and assignee.

Description of Rights: It must specify which copyright or intellectual property rights are being transferred (e.g. the specific songs).

It must be unambiguous and state clearly the intent to transfer ownership.

State any consideration to be made (e.g. payment or other benefits ).

Signatures and Date: The document signed by both parties and include the date of the agreement.

Depending on your jurisdiction, copyright law may have specific requirements for the transfer of certain rights and a scrap of paper only signed by you would not transfer rights. As always - the answer is in the details!

Once again, go see a good IP lawyer!

It identified me and the individual I sent it to to spread it, and said generally the artists I said I wrote it for could receive credit for the songs.

I don't think it stated clearly, just in general as described above.

It wasn't signed by the recipient(s), and there was no date.

THANK YOU SO MUCH. It was only signed by me. The rights don't transfer.

[RichardT]

Hi Jokersong,

You don't seem to be realising this, so I'll say it one more time. You can't get an answer to this on an online forum for musicians and engineers.

You need to consult an IP lawyer.

[Wonks]

At best it looks like you might have a basis for reclaiming some of the rights, but it would need to be sorted in court, and it’s very likely that it’s just the lawyers that benefit.

[The Red Bladder]

It identified me and the individual I sent it to to spread it, and said generally the artists I said I wrote it for could receive credit for the songs.
I don't think it stated clearly, just in general as described above.
It wasn't signed by the recipient(s), and there was no date.
THANK YOU SO MUCH. It was only signed by me. The rights don't transfer.

You are clutching at straws here! I did not write MUST - I wrote SHOULD. I merely listed those things that an IP lawyer would expect to find in a contract transferring rights.

As you still have not told us which jurisdiction we are dealing with here, a definitive opinion is something I cannot give you! (And I only have ever dealt with German, English, Scottish and US copyright laws and I have someone at hand who is a copyright lawyer in the US and Russia.)

You also have not given us the WORDING of this scrap of paper. That will make all the difference! The devil is hiding in the details - remember!

IMO, you probably did not transfer the rights or only partially transferred the rights. (But that is only the opinion of someone who is NOT an IP lawyer!) To what extent is either for the courts to decide or for you to negotiate with the other party. You will need to have a pukka lawyer on your side of the table in the event of such a discussion! No two ways about that one!

One possible outcome would be for all rights considerations paid to date to remain as received, but all future considerations to be paid to you and you to be in future identified as the rightful owner of those rights and have all moral rights to be so identified be yours. That is what happened in the Alan Freed/Chuck Berry case about Oh Maybelline (if I remember rightly). Berry merely wanted to be recognised as the author and to have all future payments to be his. The DJ A. Freed was granted the rights for a period as thanks for promoting the record and it took a court battle to get them back. (But that was US law - very similar to English copyright laws and Berry had Chess Records on his side!)

There will be lots of other details lurking in the shadows that you have not mentioned here! For example, what other hit songs have you written? What is your song writing history?

For an IP lawyer to take on your case, there must be a reasonable chance of a positive financial outcome so that the poor man or woman can be paid! For that, you must present a large body of substantial evidence - I'm sure you know that saying "With every hit, you get a writ!" i.e. every time someone has a hit record, some creature crawls out of the woodwork and claims the hit as partially theirs! A lawyer must be sure that you are not such a person!
___________________________

As a general comment for all here - why is it that as soon as someone starts writing and/or performing music, all common sense and business sense seems to fly out of the window?

[Jokersong]

I'm in Canada... and the paper just said: "You, ____________ may share this music with the performers listed as who performs the songs and they may credit the music as their own writing." Then I signed it. The recipient was in the US.

[Watchmaker]

I'm in Canada... and the paper just said: "You, ____________ may share this music with the performers listed as who performs the songs and they may credit the music as their own writing." Then I signed it. The recipient was in the US.

Walk away. You have two jurisdictions to settle before the authority having jurisdiction can even hear the case. Given the language it appears to be a limited transfer of rights as "credit the music as their own" is not necessarily the same as "entitled to all royalties".

Note that the contract under US law is most likely binding as both offer and acceptance have occurred. A signature is not a required element in the formation of a contract.

US Courts may require you establish "standing" before hearing a claim. Standing means that you have an injury in equity that the courts can settle. If this aspect comes under scrutiny, you will have to establish your contemporaneous intent as being limited to credit, not inclusive of monies or remuneration.

Also, you appear to have transferred rights to transfer rights, i.e. power of attorney to "_________" to give credit rights to the performers, but the contract is silent on copyright.

You could waste years on this or you could get lucky, or both. How important is it to you to get bogged down in a distraction?

[The Red Bladder]

The note you've described does not appear to constitute a proper and clear transfer of intellectual property. The note seems to acknowledge permission to share the music and allows performers to credit the music as their own, it (IMO) lacks the specificity and legal definitions required for a comprehensive and full transfer of rights.

If the note is not a valid transfer of copyright, you may still retain the rights to the music and as the composer, you MAY may have a claim to any rights income thus generated.

The situation is all the more complex as it is an agreement spanning two separate and different jurisdictions. Ouch!

Yet again, I must insist that you get as much evidence together about both your song-writing career and any other circumstantial evidence, such as emails, social media messages, etc. and present all that material to an IP lawyer.

Everyone here is telling you the self-same thing - ask an IP lawyer for a exploratory discussion and if that person tells you (politely of course!) to F-off and not waste their time or yours, follow that advice to the letter and get on with the rest of your life!

They may however offer you some sort of a deal.

But my experience of legal battles about song copyrights is that it is nearly always like watching two bald men fighting over a comb.

[Folderol]

I think that note demonstrates why you should never attempt to write your own copyright agreements.
Personally I think you should write it down to experience, walk away and concentrate on creating your most epic composition of all time

[Touching Cloth]

I'm in Canada... and the paper just said: "You, ____________ may share this music with the performers listed as who performs the songs and they may credit the music as their own writing." Then I signed it. The recipient was in the US.

Late to the thread, IMHO, the agreement transferred 'music'. It did not state 'lyrics', which is the type of IP you are attempting to recover. Therefore, I think it could be argued that the agreement is void for your lyrics.

From memory - Facebook messages are only non-recoverable if both sides delete the messages.

[tea for two]

I'm in Canada... and the paper just said: "You, ____________ may share this music with the performers listed as who performs the songs and they may credit the music as their own writing." Then I signed it. The recipient was in the US.

Just seen this thread.
Contracts are to be negotiated wordings to be altered only therefater much scrutiny deliberation discarded or signed.

Only 1 word needed to be added here : Not : "they may Not credit the music as their own writing."

There's that saying : do nothing let others think you are a fool, than to do something proove you are a fool.

Of course I don't adhere to this.

[Jokersong]

I'm in Canada... and the paper just said: "You, ____________ may share this music with the performers listed as who performs the songs and they may credit the music as their own writing." Then I signed it. The recipient was in the US.

Just seen this thread.
Contracts are to be negotiated wordings to be altered only therefater much scrutiny deliberation discarded or signed.

Only 1 word needed to be added here : Not : "they may Not credit the music as their own writing."

There's that saying : do nothing let others think you are a fool, than to do something proove you are a fool.

Of course I don't adhere to this.

Now that I know I'm excited but I think all the messages were deleted and removed... if I can't provide alot of evidence what should I do?

[Eddy Deegan]

Now that I know I'm excited but I think all the messages were deleted and removed... if I can't provide alot of evidence what should I do?

You should read the discussion in this topic to date again.

I'm not a music copyright lawyer, so I'd advise consulting one with a good track record in this field.

... get a free half-hour with a decent IP lawyer

... talk to a highly regarded copyright lawyer.

... seek legal advice. Based on that advice either walk away or engage representation to challenge the matter.

... you either need to reach a 'gentleman's agreement' with the assignees, or you need to retain an experienced lawyer and be prepared to fund an expensive legal fight through the courts.

Once again, go see a good IP lawyer!

You can go no further without professional advice.

You don't seem to be realising this, so I'll say it one more time. You can't get an answer to this on an online forum for musicians and engineers.

You need to consult an IP lawyer.

Yet again, I must insist that you get as much evidence together about both your song-writing career and any other circumstantial evidence, such as emails, social media messages, etc. and present all that material to an IP lawyer.

Everyone here is telling you the self-same thing - ask an IP lawyer for a exploratory discussion ...

It should be crystal clear at this point.