Best position for desk and monitors in L shaped room

[dickiefunk]

Hi,

I have a spare room in our house which I’ve converted into a makeshift home studio which I’ve attached a rough drawing of the layout.



I been working in this room for around 12 years and whilst it’s a long way from ideal, it has worked well for me. I have had to build a vocal booth out of necessity due to pretty low level street noise. The booth is very effective and works well but I am left with an odd shaped room. I am in the process of re decorating the room and changing some of my setup. One of the main changes is the desk and I have ordered a Thomann Creative Desk 137 which I’ve attached a picture.



This desk is smaller than my old one and has given me two position choices. Up until now I’ve been using the “Option 1” position which has been fine but I’m wondering if “Option 2” would be a better choice?
My monitors are Neumann KH120’s and I have an Eve TS108 sub. I’m considering changing my sub for the Neumann KH750 or sell my Eve sub and get the Neumann KH120ii or KH150’s.
I realise neither position are ideal but I’m wondering which position you would recommend to get the best out of my monitors in my room? I will be sorting out acoustic treatment for whichever position I end up using.

[Arpangel]

Option 1, definitely.
You’re firing down the long axis of the room, plus, importantly, your monitors are further away from corners.
IMO it makes no sense to use option 2 from a sound point of view.

[N i g e l]

...and the window effects will be symmetrical. Some people might freak at having their back to the door but you could hang a wall mirror to make it visible.

[Drew Stephenson]

Hmmm. I'd be tempted to try diagonally across the bottom right corner as it will give you something much closer to a symmetrical layout. But it might not give you enough actual working space.

[dickiefunk]

Thanks guys. Yes Option 1 has been working fine for me so far so that’s the most likely place. I have considered Option 2 because it would give me more working space.

I hear what you’re saying Drew. Diagonally would give something closer to symmetrical but it would really be a workable space due.

[Hugh Robjohns]

It's a really compromised setup in myriad ways, but option 1 is the least worst, without doubt.

[dickiefunk]

Yes it is really a case of picking the least worst option! It has been working fine before and I will be acoustically treating the room and making changes to my monitoring setup to have some room correction dsp.

Now that you’ve got some idea of my room layout would the KH750 sub still be a good idea to use with my KH120’s or should I not use a sub and just go either the KH120ii or KH150?

[dickiefunk]

It's a really compromised setup in myriad ways, but option 1 is the least worst, without doubt.

Hi Hugh,

Now that you’ve got some idea of my room layout would you still recommend the KH750 sub to go with my KH120’s or would no sub be a better option and get either the KH120ii or KH150?

[Arpangel]

It's a really compromised setup in myriad ways, but option 1 is the least worst, without doubt.

Hi Hugh,

Now that you’ve got some idea of my room layout would you still recommend the KH750 sub to go with my KH120’s or would no sub be a better option and get either the KH120ii or KH150?

Not speaking for anyone else, but there is a consensus of opinion here to not use a sub unless you’ve got a good treated room, and I would say that too, it could make things a lot worse, especially in your space. Id go for a an integrated speaker system, if you feel the need to upgrade.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Now that you’ve got some idea of my room layout would you still recommend the KH750 sub to go with my KH120’s or would no sub be a better option and get either the KH120ii or KH150?

I've no idea what acoustic treatment you have or will get, but sorting out the LF peaks and troughs in an almost cube room takes a lot of treatment, and I'm not sure you have the space with that booth there too. And with the inherent symmetry compromises is it really worth it?

Personally, I think it's rarely beneficial to have a sub in such a room from a sound quality point of view. But if you want one to annoy the neighbours and get you into the groove by flapping your trousers, go for it. YOLO.

If you want a little more low end without exciting the room too much 150s might be an idea, but I think it more cost effective just to stick with the original 120s, invest in Sonarworks (or similar), and some good headphones.

[dickiefunk]

Thanks for the advice. Yes I don’t really have the space and layout to fully acoustically treat the space properly for those low frequencies. I will be getting acoustic panels (not foam) and hang those in as many reflection points as I can.
I use the sub for rehearsals running bass guitar and V-Drums. I am getting some peaks with the Eve TS108 sub that I own and it doesn’t integrate with the KH120’s smoothly. Due to the design of my old desk I could position the sub underneath it and had it in the bottom corner opposite the booth pointing diagonally across the room. The sub always sounded like it was coming from the corner of the room regardless of what settings I tried to get it to seamlessly blend with the KH120’s. I’m curious about how this sub would sound positioned under the new desk and a little off center hear if this would significantly improve?
I definitely get a more even sound just using the KH120’s by themselves and this is what I’ve been doing for mixing and using a pair of Beyer DT880pro headphones with Toneboosters Morphit correction software. I will be looking at possibly upgrading the DT880’s to something like the Neumann NDH30 or the new Sennheiser HD490 Pro’s.

[Hugh Robjohns]

The sub always sounded like it was coming from the corner of the room regardless of what settings I tried to get it to seamlessly blend with the KH120’s.

If you can tell where the sub is you either have the crossover frequency set too high (80Hz or lower is best), or — much more likely — the sub is generating distortion product harmonics and it's those that allow you to locate it.

If the latter, there's nothing much you can do about it. Professional very low distortion subs are very expensive because it's difficult to do! Placing the existing sub in front and between the satellite speakers will help to disguise the sub location, because it's harmonics will be lost amid the higher frequencies from the main speakers.... but by the same token, your sub distortion products are now masking the high-quality low-distortion midrange of the mains speakers!

That's why I'm not a fan of cheap subs with high-quality main speakers. They do more harm than good!

That said, if you want some hefty low end for practice etc, rather than mixing, it's a tolerable solution.... just turn the sub off when you're mixing.

On that basis, it sounds like you've already optimised the best way of working with small speakers and headphones to hear the deep bass.

[dickiefunk]

Thanks Hugh,

It is very easy to mute the Eve sub with their remote control which is what I’ve been doing. I will try the sub under my new desk when it arrives to see if that improves things at all.

[tea for two]

I definitely get a more even sound just using the KH120’s by themselves and this is what I’ve been doing for mixing and using a pair of Beyer DT880pro headphones with Toneboosters Morphit correction software. I will be looking at possibly upgrading the DT880’s to something like the Neumann NDH30 or the new Sennheiser HD490 Pro’s.

Re sub in untreated rooms, Kali In-unf reviewed in SoS magazine last year
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/kali-audio-in-unf
with its desktop bass unit and satellites worth an audition possibly.

If you'd like to feel more bottom from headphones also to get a balance in the mix then before splashing on ndh30 hd490, the semiopen superlux evo hd681 well worth considering it is a snip in comparison, I use the evo for getting the balance on bass beats heevee stuff : previously had akg k712 couldn't get the bass balance right in the mix : more due to my weirrdd headshape and gollum ears lol. I've also read encouraging things aboot akg k245 open backed regarding bass and balance when mixing it's in my to check oot list as it also is a snip in comparison.

[James Perrett]

I use the sub for rehearsals running bass guitar and V-Drums.

While my main monitors will go up to reasonable levels, I have some PA speakers also set up which I use when I'm worried that people want levels that could damage the main monitors or when someone else is using the studio for a rehearsal.

[dickiefunk]

Thanks James. My room is too small for a pa.

[dickiefunk]

I noticed IK Multimedia released the Arc Studio hardware room correction box.

https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/arcstudio/

This is a potential option for my setup but I’m trying to reduce clutter and cables in my room. I really like the idea of having just a single pair of monitors to keep things clean and tidy. Also whilst the Natural Phase mode only adds 1.4ms the linear phase mode is quite a bit higher which may noticeable working with vsti’s. Also the product adds an extra stage on conversion on top of my MOTU 828es interface and the conversion in the Eve TS108 sub.
Regarding rehearsals with bass players and v-drums etc, my current KH120’s have been able to handle most situations. The output is set to 100dB on the back of the monitor. I only occasionally have the red limiter light come on and the output is set to 100dB on the back of the monitor. I’m wondering if the KH120ii’s would be enough with their updated driver plus higher output SPL, slightly extended frequency response and MA1 correction? Alternatively the KH150’s tick a lot of boxes apart from the price.

[dickiefunk]

I have been offered a great deal on a Neumann KH750 sub and I’m torn with what to do.
I’m not sure whether I should change my current setup for a single pair of KH120ii/KH150, get the new IK Multimedia ARC Studio for my current setup or snap up this deal on the KH750 sub and sell my Eve sub?
What would you recommend?

[Drew Stephenson]

Personally I'd take the 750 and beg / steal / borrow an MMA1 mic to calibrate them.
When I auditioned it against a pair of KH80s it wasn't just the better low end, taking that heavy lifting away from the woofers opens up the mids as well.

[dickiefunk]

Thanks Drew. I’m just a little concerned it would be too much for my small odd shaped room as it goes even lower than my current Eve TS108 (18hz +3dB vs 33hz -3dB) I’m not running my monitors very loud at all.
If I were to buy the KH750 or KH150’s they would have to be secondhand due to price.

The KH120ii’s could be plenty for my room or alternatively the new IK ARC Studio could be a very cost effective solution. However I’m a little concerned about adding another conversion stage as I think my Eve TS108 already uses conversion (Burr Brown) for its DSP but this is only for the sub itself. The signal path to the satellite is purely analog. The latency of the sub is Eve sub is 3 ms and the IK ARC Studio adds another 1.4 ms using the Natural Phase mode. These is also a Linear Phase mode which has higher latency and I’m wondering if this is the same thing where the Neumann MA1 linearises the phase response?

I wish I could try all these options in my room at the same time but this simply isn’t an option. As a result I’m relying on the advise of people that are a lot more experienced in room acoustics.

Any more thoughts on these options I’m considering?

[James Perrett]

It may be worth saying that the effects due to transducer imperfections are probably an order of magnitude greater than any effects due to A/D and D/A conversions.

If you are on a budget and happy using a sub then maybe the KH750 and KH80 combination might be an alternative. I've seen a couple of glowing reviews from experienced people who have heard this combination.

[Drew Stephenson]

I think Dickie already has KH120s, so he wouldn't need to change the main pair if he got a KH750.

I'm not sure how the ARC system works yet (haven't read the review) but would you need to use the processing in the Eve sub if the signal had already gone through the Arc or could that do all the heavy lifting and just pass the analogue signal onto the Eve and the KH120s?

[dickiefunk]

Thanks guys. Unfortunately I missed out on the deal with the KH750.

[Drew Stephenson]

Well I guess that simplifies things...

[dickiefunk]

Yes!

Trying to weigh up keeping my existing monitors and get the IK ARC Studio or change my whole monitoring setup for the KH120ii or KH150 (if they come up secondhand ).

One other option might be to change just the KH120’s to the KH120ii and keep the Eve sub for rehearsals only? I could perhaps just use the MA 1 with the sub muted for mixing and then have to option to unmute the sub for rehearsals?

Saying all that, I really like the idea of just having a single pair of monitors to de-clutter cables etc.

One final monitor that I’m aware of is the IK iLoud precision 6 which also has the ARC room correction that gets stored in the monitor itself (similar to the ARC Studio). In Phil Wards SOS review he had the bigger Precision MTM’s and said they were “not remotely outclassed by the Neumann KH150’s” that he also at the same time. The voicing is a little more coloured which I won’t know if I like it without trying it out in my room. I will say, I preferred the natural sound of the KH120 over the Focal Solo ST6 that I tried here. The Precision 6 is rear ported so may not be suitable for my room due to the position of my desk?

Any thoughts on this please?