Mixing assistance for an album

[Larphi]

Hi,

We're a metal band currently working on our debut album. We're facing some difficulties in the mixing phase and are wondering whether we should go for a professional (though our past experiences have been disappointing) or work from our demos. Regarding the latter, you have an example, roughly mastered:

https://soundcloud.com/user-362949117/t ... 66665b1d0d

Could we get some feedback on this?

We'd like to:
- Identify the strengths of our demos: What works well in our mix? Do we have good dynamics or cohesion between the instruments?
- Pinpoint major flaws: If we have issues with instrument balance, levels, etc. We've been told about poorly controlled bass, so we'd really like to identify the major flaws to try to correct them.
- Identify areas for improvement: Does our mix lack clarity or punch? Perhaps some instruments are too prominent or buried in the background? Any ideas are welcome...

The idea is to determine if, after correction/improvement, these demos could potentially be usable for a quality and distributable outcome.

If so, we were thinking, for example, of having them professionally mastered, or at least by someone proficient in this stage who could provide us with a few tips beforehand to ensure the smoothest transition possible between the two stages. The corollary to the previous question: wouldn't this be a band-aid solution, knowing that our mix will never have the qualities of a professional outcome (we don't harbor that pretension, though we'd like to, haha)?

Thanks again for your help.

[The Red Bladder]

It takes you over a minute to get to the meat and veg. Remember what Mike Campbell says about song structure "Please don't bore us, just get to the chorus!"

The wind noises are far, far too loud. It's a gimmick and gimmicks should be kept to a minimum in both volume and duration.

Drums are good, but nowhere nearly loud enough.

I didn't hear a central theme, musically or lyrically. It sounds as if it is just noise. There is probably something in there, but it is being drowned out by voice noises and wind noises.

I would remix the whole thing and probably overdub some things and add a lead vocal that people can identify with and remember.

My 30 cents worth is to listen to some Rammstein and Metallica and rethink your whole approach.

[Wonks]

Intro is far too long as has been said. If it's an album-only track then you might get away with it, or live, but for something you want to use a s a demo? Forget it. Shorten it considerably and make it interesting or cut it to 4 bars or cut it completely.

The mix itself just sounds like 100% mush. Very little definition and it sound like three different tracks played at the same time.

You need to cut out at least 50% of what's going on at any one time to stand any chance of getting it to sound good. By all means bring in new elements, but for everything you bring in, drop something else out.

There's so much there and everything is louder than everything else. Nothing cuts through or has definition.

You certainly need to work on the sounds in a mix context rather then get them sounding good on their own and bringing them together without changing anything. Use high and low pass filters and EQ cuts to leave room for the kick and bass and the main elements to cut through.

This could be a good one for a Sound on Sound Mix Rescue article!

[Sam Inglis]

I think it's hard to know how successful this mix is without having a clear idea of what you're aiming for. Some extreme metal is deliberately very lo-fi. Some is crystal clear and beautifully mixed. This track is somewhere in the middle at the moment. What bands are you referencing?

My comments might change if I knew the answer to that, but my first reaction is:

* The drum sound is OK, but the heavy use of reverb makes it quite dated to my ears.

* The guitars are indistinct and lack articulation, and the solos are too quiet.

* The vocal sits at a good level in the mix, but I cannot make out a single word.

Anyway, if you would like to submit the multitrack for a potential Sound On Sound Mix Rescue, I'd be more than happy to have a crack at it. PM me or email sam AT soundonsound DOT com.

[Larphi]

Thanks for the feedback!

I understand the criticisms, no problem, once again, it's just a demo, the initial idea was to have a first rendering. However, we've had a few setbacks in terms of sound engineering, so we're considering reworking our demos to make them usable. Hence the post.

So in order :
When I read "My 30 cents worth is to listen to some Rammstein and Metallica and rethink your whole approach", then yes, indeed - and sorry for that -, I'll find it hard to consider these kind of feedback objectively.

Otherwise, I've taken note of the comment about the intro, which is more there to set the mood.

The vocals are more there to set an ambiance, without the intelligible character being essential. That being said, as is often the case in extreme music, it's easier with the lyrics in front of you.

As for the guitars, yes, there is far too much bass, we have to fix it. However, this type of saturated sound is intentional: it's what we call the Swedish Chainsaw.

OK for the drums.

Some references :
https://open.spotify.com/intl-fr/album/ ... reZJUvnGFw
https://open.spotify.com/intl-fr/album/ ... HYYVnntUHy
https://open.spotify.com/intl-fr/album/ ... F8z9JwzKd5
https://open.spotify.com/intl-fr/album/ ... pQJdSi01WG

I'm not opposed to submitting the multitrack for a potential Sound On Sound Mix Rescue, but will that help us with the rest of the album or in understanding what's wrong? The ultimate idea is that we manage to produce (or have produced) our entire album.

[Chet Leeway]

IMO some of the earlier comments fail to take into account the genre you're aiming for. For me things generally sound OK for the genre, but there's some sort of resonance in the bass register that's probably eating a lot of headroom and making it all too mushy for real impact. So first of all I would try to tame some frequencies from the bass. A HP filter may be enough to improve it a lot. Listening to your references, you will probably notice the bass is much more controlled in those tracks, almost as if it's just a slightly darker addendum to the rhythm guitar.

[Drew Stephenson]

I'm not opposed to submitting the multitrack for a potential Sound On Sound Mix Rescue, but will that help us with the rest of the album or in understanding what's wrong?

It did for me.
Sam, or whoever takes on the role, doesn't just work in a black box, the article write up will explain what they did, why, and how they approached things. From that it's easy to look at your own process and see what you apply to your next track.

[Sam Inglis]

IMO some of the earlier comments fail to take into account the genre you're aiming for. For me things generally sound OK for the genre, but there's some sort of resonance in the bass register that's probably eating a lot of headroom and making it all too mushy for real impact. So first of all I would try to tame some frequencies from the bass. A HP filter may be enough to improve it a lot. Listening to your references, you will probably notice the bass is much more controlled in those tracks, almost as if it's just a slightly darker addendum to the rhythm guitar.

I'd agree with this. This is definitely a case where having references is vital!

[tea for two]

I wouldn't use mellow Jazz as a ref to mix Death Metal Doom Metal.

I like the intro. Vocal delivery fits the genre.

For me main issue with this is the Drums they kill everything else.
One quick thing to try is pushing back in the mix the Drums. Also playing around with cutting the lower freq of the whole drum track.
Thereafter bringing forward in the mix the Vocals the Guitars.
Also shaping the Bass with Eq Compression to make it more biting less bottom.

These should be done whilst retaining a heavy sound.

Worth listening to the heavy yet clear sound of Oasis as a reference even though they clearly are not Death nor Doom nor Deathcore Grindcore Metalcore.

What are you mixing on : which headphones, which speakers monitors, if monitors is the room properly acoustically treated for you to hear what's happening in the mix.
I use Rode Nth100 headphones to mix my own heavy Rock as I don't have an acoustically treated room. I found Nth100 for my ear shape head shape the best of those headphones I purrchased under £300 for mixing heavy Rock. I had to remove their felt pads under each earcup to get the sound I was after : easy to do just pulling the ear cups out with fingers.
Focal Clear MG headphones approx £1K I auditioned is a monster for mixing Metal Hard heavy Rock.

[The Elf]

The balance is odd. Sounds like it was mixed while the drummer was out of the room!

I would first concentrate on getting the drums and bass pushing along, then begin adding the vocals and guitars to the point where they do their job without dominating. That's going to take some careful EQ-ing and a savvy ear that is looking for *balance* and not just promoting one instrument to stage centre.

Lots of tubbiness in the mix. That's the single biggest challenge here. The more extreme you want the mix to sound, then the harder you need to work to make sure that each element occupies and dominates the space it's meant to fill. At the moment everything seems to be fighting everything else, which suggests a few HPFs are needed at the very least.

I dare say a good mix engineer should be able to sort this out pretty quickly - it's the kind of thing that an hour's tweaking would probaby solve. I've salvaged worse-sounding mixes than this!

[Zukan]

Happy to teach you how to mix, but it will be a lengthy experience to cover every facet of recording, mixing and production.

+1 for Sos mix rescue. Sam's a top bloke.

[James Perrett]

The balance is odd. Sounds like it was mixed while the drummer was out of the room!

It sounded to me like there were two drummers. The one playing the toms mixed it while the one playing the kick and snare went on holiday

[Larphi]

Thank you for the feedback. As Chet and Sam mentioned earlier, having the references in mind, as well as a good knowledge of the musical style, is crucial here. For example, wanting to compare my mix with Rammstein or Metallica is completely irrelevant.

If I say this, it's because I feel like the recommendations don't necessarily align, which suggests that those who gave feedback may not have listened to the references or are unfamiliar with the style: for example, regarding the drums, it's either good, too loud, or not loud enough.

The real question is: how does my mix sound compared to the references ? And knowing the references, how - concretely - can we make it closer to them?

[Sam Spoons]

What do you think of this as an alternative reference https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OvW8Z7kiws? I found the ones you posted lacking interest* to me but TBF they are not a style I find attractive (but for some reason I love the King Crimson track, and album).

I could see your track as film music, maybe behind a space opera battle scene?

* Except the first which was quite nice but didn't seem to have anything in common with your track.

[Chet Leeway]

FFS the OP knows exactly what style he's aiming for, so what's the point of bringing in boomer rock, prog, mainstream metal and britpap?

BTW, these two recent articles in SoS are highly relevant:

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... tal-part-1
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... tal-part-2

The second one includes this comment which I think is worth thinking about: “For the bass guitar, I split the signal and use a Mesa Boogie Subway DI and whatever high‑gain dirt amp I see fit. Usually, an old Peavey Bandit does the trick. It is key to have the bass come through as both distinct in its own frequency range, yet somehow gel completely with the low end of the guitar. This is achieved by a blend of this description."

Register to get free access to the replica digital magazine: https://www.soundonsound.com/digital-magazine

Or buy the individual issues/articles or just get a subscription!

[tea for two]

Napalm Death was the first such style band I got into back in the day.

I must admit to enjoying growling sometimes when I'm warbling. It's great fun growling with nursery rhymes as Twinkle Twinkle little star.
Although my throat takes a right hammering its pretty tough to growl thru a whole song let alone a whole concert.

To the OP :
5 World Class engineers have replied on this thread including one Grammy judge for engineering records. I'm a home hobbyist ie amateur.
Mixes : somethings apply across whichever genres styles : if the bottom is bloated it will affect the whole mix.
I mentioned earlier if you play around with cutting the bottom bloat from the Drum track and the Bass.
Levels : you can move things backwards forwards in the mix.
I mentioned bringing the Guitars Vocals up in the mix, pushing back the Drums in the mix. This isn't to do with volume loudness.
For instance if a person is talking to you 1ft away 10ft away at the same volume loudness, the 10ft away will sound like its loudness is less even though it isn't.
Moving things backwards forwards brings more space to your mix so that whatever is moved backwards is still clear. I like doing this on pretty much all my mixes.

[Sam Spoons]

FFS the OP knows exactly what style he's aiming for, so what's the point of bringing in boomer rock, prog, mainstream metal and britpap?

The OP's references suggest the style has a large pinch of King Crimson's "Court Of The Crimson King" in its ancestry and it is often useful to refer back to those who did it first. Also the KC track is extremely well mixed with great clarity between the elements, something the OP is struggling with.

[Chet Leeway]

...

[OneWorld]

Intro is far too long as has been said............

.........This could be a good one for a Sound on Sound Mix Rescue article!

Mix Rescue or Mix Resuscitation?

Sorry OP, but you've invented a new genre of music, I just laughed, and not in a mocking way I hasten to add, it made me chuckle, like a Benny Hill tune would, and by the way, I do not feel any sense of superiority, my mixing is woeful, I try and I try, and then this came along, like Robinson Crusoe and Man Friday, at least I am not on my own.

More objectively, as others have said the intro is so long it's like waiting for a bus, and then 3 come along with all that mush and noise, it is so hard to hear each separate instrument, is this what they call Mosh Pit Music?

Still, if you enjoy and are learning and open to suggestions, good for you and best of luck

[Sam Inglis]

Sorry OP, but you've invented a new genre of music

Really, no.

Black metal has been around for at least forty years. And if you listen to the OP's references you'll hear that his track belongs squarely in the genre that they are in. It is perfectly on point as regards the music and the choice of sounds. The mix does have some issues but it's not a million miles away.

(It's quite refreshing to have references that are actually relevant for once.)

[Stuart79]

Doesn't sound a million miles off to me. Playing is tight. Mix maybe sounds a little soft relative to your reference tracks. Possibly due to masking. Possibly due to reverb choices. Possibly both.

Things I'd be interested to try:
In general
- A bit of subtractive eq to define some space for the different elements and reduce masking. This might let some more of the aggression through and make things sound more powerful.

Drums
- It sounds like the reverb from the intro remains throughout (but it's difficult to tell exactly). It makes the drums sound distant and possibly diminishes their impact in the heavier section. It probably also masks some other bits as well, but it's difficult to tell with everything going full tilt. I'd automate it down or off. Given the tempo of the heavier section, something a lot shorter and more subtle if needed for life. Maybe automate the longer reverb back up to highlight fills if necessary and for the more ambient section, but otherwise keep it short.
- I'd experiment with narrowing the stereo width a touch to get them sitting inside the guitars.
- I'm not wild on the tom sound in the intro. It sounds very skin-heavy and lacks body. That in tandem with the reverb sounds a bit plasticky. That may be a stylistic choice, but given the choice I'd experiment with mixing some body back into the toms in the sections where the arrangement is more sparse for a bit more power. It's less of an issue when everything is going all out.

Guitars
- Sound pretty good. I would be tempted to try controlling the "chug" a little with some dynamic eq or multiband compression. It's difficult to tell if this is just the guitars or the bass as well. If it's both, the subtractive eq may help to define the contribution of each more effectively.
- The trem-picked guitars seem to get buried. I'd experiment with panning to find a place for them.

Just my opinion. I don't listen to a great deal of metal these days so I'm only going on the reference tracks provided.

[R_A]

All of the comments about the intro being too long don't take account of where this composition will be sequenced in an album journey.

Niche genres don't have to be 100% Spotify friendly!

OP maybe consider releasing some 2 to 4 track EPs before an album.

Good luck ^_^

[Larphi]

Some comments amused me, but it's okay, we practice a music (or "noise," I should say ) that isn't necessarily very accessible, so it's normal for people to be taken aback, especially when they have preconceived ideas about what music should be... But to each their own, right...

Anyway, what matters to me is moving forward and understanding how to improve the mix, not to debate musical tastes. I remind everyone that originally, this mix is just a working demo, so of course, it can be improved.

Some comments and advice are very relevant and detailed, and provide some very interesting and concrete areas for improvement, which is great! I truly appreciate them and I thank you.

[tea for two]

The mix does have some issues but it's not a million miles away.

(It's quite refreshing to have references that are actually relevant for once.)

+1

I also don't think the song requires anything drastic.
I feel it would be refreshing to do a mix rescue on a BlackMetal DeathMetal DoomMetal Deathcore Grindcore MetalCore.

[tea for two]

Some comments amused me, but it's okay, we practice a music (or "noise," I should say )
Some comments and advice are very relevant and detailed, and provide some very interesting and concrete areas for improvement, which is great! I truly appreciate them and I thank you.

Hi Larphi every person posting on this thread is top notch : except me ofcourse. I mentioned 5 World Class engineers posted including a Grammy judge for audio engineering.
Reason I can post more words is because I have thyme. Whilst the World Class engineers are busy with work.

Proper monitoring is so necessary for you to readily hear what to do : suitable headphones and or properly acoustically treated room with decent monitors.

On my Rode Nth100 headphones with felt pads removed from under the earcups this is necessary : I can readily hear the difference from your reference songs and your song.
I would recommend Rode Nth100 headphones with felt pads removed for various Metal Hard Rock Grunge : from various headphones under £300 I have purrchased.
Focal Clear MG headphones approx £1K is a monster for mixing various styles of Metal Hard Rock Grunge.

37sec on your song the Toms gradually enter need to be pushed back in the mix they take over too much : use faders sliders to do this. Toms also have way too much reverb : they need to be a lot drier. This is one reason for the mushiness in your mix. Also the Toms have a metallic zinnggg to them which if possible should be removed.
1min02sec Vocals need to be brought up in level moved forward : use faders sliders to do this.
1min32sec onwards when all hell breaks loose proper head banging part there is too much bottom bloat which with Eq and Filtering can be cut to make the whole sound clearer leaner : cutting Bass and Drums. Bottom bloat is one of the major reasons for any tune in any style to become muddy.
1min32sec onwards the Vocals have become buried they need to be brought up in level brought forward using faders sliders. Guitars also to be brought forward. Snare when Vocals and Guitar are brought forward, the Snare will need to be brought forward. However the Toms once more take over should be pushed back also made drier.
1min32sec onwards there should be more space between the instruments sounds : so use the faders sliders to move the instruments sounds back and forth to make space. That's what faders sliders do. If you want to increase loudness of an instrument then use Gain.

After all this you can use a Pultec plugin to do the Pultec trick to add heeveeness weightiness to the whole mix :
on the Pultec plugin setting the low end at 60Hz thereafter increasing the Low on the Low dial whilst also by the exact same amount Attenuating the low on the Attenuation dial : doing just enuff to maintain clarity.
You can bring up the High dial in the Pultec plugin to add sheen sparkle.
I use Pultec plugin bundled with Logic to do this.