Effectively Testing Out Ideas

[PippaPumpkin]

Hello,

this is an issue I haven't found a good approach to yet. How much work should I put into testing an idea before I commit to the project?

On the one hand it can be more benefitial to do less testing and just take the hit when a project goes south, on the other hand doing too little testing might result in sinking alot of time in projects that crash and burn.

Some ideas I don't think aren't even that testable, if you don't just do the whole thing, or tests would be so time intensive that you might just as well do the project without testing.

Another problem I encounter is that if I start to calculate such things too much I kind of start to freeze up and end up with not starting anything, because my mind is too occupied with juggling factors.

Not to speak of the me constantly miscalculating and not grasping what I am getting myself into alot of times. I hope to avoid string catastrophies in the future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKG26GZs5pM

[Wonks]

Can you give an example of the sort of 'idea' you are talking about? 'Idea' is a very vague term without some context.

[BWC]

I think that you just need to learn to embrace the catastrophes. Negative results are still results! It's all about learning, as I see it.

[amanise]

There are some things you just can't test for. For those, like creative ideas, you can't even guess how people are going to react to an idea, for example. For technical things it's easier to quantify expected results - so you can prepare tests accordingly. However, you might embark on a program of technical tests and accidentally find something you like better than the scenario you're testing for. These are happy accidents but they end up in time that has been wasted - and that would be the time you spent setting up your detailed testing program.

There's no escape - you are going to waste time, but you might get some amazing unexpected surprises along the way. I think the best way is to just start on things. Sometimes the hardest part is starting. Then you can follow your intuition and enjoy yourself. For example this;

https://soundcloud.com/adrian-manise/th ... al_sharing

I had the idea for the music first, and then I had to write words (which I haven't recorded yet - that's the next stage). But it's not the way I usually do things. I usually go the other way around. But I'm following my intuition and we'll see what comes out at the end.

[zenguitar]

Ideas tend to appear because you've been thinking about solving a problem.

It is very easy to focus your attention on your idea and invest a lot of time and effort developing it.

However, my advice would be to pause and focus more on the original problem. There's a very good chance that you are not the first person to come across this problem. So the most effective thing to do is to look to see if there is already a well understood solution to that problem.

For example, you are now part of the SOS Forum community so you have a ready made group you can ask. You might find that the problem has already been solved, or you might develop a better understanding of the best ways to approach a solution.

I remember that you had an idea for a sample instrument. You asked here and got a lot of useful feedback about how much work is required and the type of facilities used by the companies making sampled instruments. But you were also surprised that some thought that the instrument you were unhappy with would be useful in a different context. And while it might not be as simple as you thought to make that sampled instrument, it is possible that you could take that idea to an established company.

Andy

[Drew Stephenson]

Ideas tend to appear because you've been thinking about solving a problem.

It is very easy to focus your attention on your idea and invest a lot of time and effort developing it.

However, my advice would be to pause and focus more on the original problem.

There's an old adage that people in a hardware store don't want a 1/4" drill, they want a 1/4" hole.

[ef37a]

Ideas tend to appear because you've been thinking about solving a problem.

It is very easy to focus your attention on your idea and invest a lot of time and effort developing it.

However, my advice would be to pause and focus more on the original problem.

There's an old adage that people in a hardware store don't want a 1/4" drill, they want a 1/4" hole.

Whoah! How deep is that! (sorry) One of the fantastic advantages of computer recording is that it costs practically nothing no matter how much you do. That means that you can play and experiment for hours and log all your efforts. Yes, 99.9% of it will be useless crap but storage is dirt cheap and you can dump off an evening's work to a gash hard drive and maybe a few days/weeks later you will think "hang on"."I did something like that last whenever..." Like a 19th century composer keeping a diary but SO much easier.

Dave.

[tea for two]

How much work should I put into testing an idea before I commit to the project?

What type of idea. Don't say what it is.
Just give a hint of it, which field.

2014-2017 when I was involved in the ewekay tech scene in old street shoreditch :
so many folk were proposing this and that tech idea.
Often thymes these ideas weren't different better than already existing tech,
nor adding anything of valoo nor solving problems,
nor filling an important gap in the market.

More often they were flights of fancy which is fine I have flights of fancy.

Whichever idea we have :

If others have done it, does our idea have a different angle does somethings better.
Justin DAW the major players each offer something different from the others : so that we can choose. Similar for thousands plugins soft synths each offers something.

Does our idea add valoo and or does it solve a problem/s.
If it adds valoo then it doesn't necessarily need to solve a problem.
An example is Air BnB $108Billion market capitalisation. It's valoo is in one platform bringing together various parts of the renting World.
Air BnB has created problems in some cities where its been banned : Amsterdam, Barcelona, Berlin, London, New York, Paris.

Does our idea fill an important gap in the market.
By important will the consumer benefit from this filling the gap. If the consumer doesn't benefit then whichever gap we fill won't have traction.
A tech that filled an important gap is those apps that makes it easier to give food to the needy as ShareTheMeal.

[PippaPumpkin]

Can you give an example of the sort of 'idea' you are talking about? 'Idea' is a very vague term without some context.

Okay, now that I have a bow and resin I might as well use it on electric bass and guitar. With the failure of recording the violin, however, I don't know if I would get much of the same result, which would be unfortunate. Thinking of different ideas of sample libraries I could work on, this seems the most compelling idea. But it might just end up sounding like an accordion again. I want to create more sample libraries but with the violin experience I feel kind of paralysed.

I think that you just need to learn to embrace the catastrophes. Negative results are still results! It's all about learning, as I see it.

This is true. From the string disaster I don't know what lessons I have learned. I don't know what went wrong. I learned that my expectations were unrealistic and that I put in a lot of work, thinking it would result in a string section. That was a complete miscalcutlation. I am not as confident as I was before and I'm more aware how unpredictable my projects can be. Maybe I should revert back to doing smaller projects but the ideas I'm thinking of are comparable in scope. It left me more confused than anything is my impression.

There are some things you just can't test for.

This is my impression as well. Sometimes it is like I flew to space with a DIY rocket and am just drifting inbetween the stars.

For technical things it's easier to quantify expected results - so you can prepare tests accordingly. However, you might embark on a program of technical tests and accidentally find something you like better than the scenario you're testing for. These are happy accidents but they end up in time that has been wasted - and that would be the time you spent setting up your detailed testing program.

I feel like experimentation would be benifitial for coming up with more viable ideas.

There's no escape - you are going to waste time, but you might get some amazing unexpected surprises along the way. I think the best way is to just start on things. Sometimes the hardest part is starting. Then you can follow your intuition and enjoy yourself. For example this;

https://soundcloud.com/adrian-manise/th ... al_sharing

I had the idea for the music first, and then I had to write words (which I haven't recorded yet - that's the next stage). But it's not the way I usually do things. I usually go the other way around. But I'm following my intuition and we'll see what comes out at the end.

That sounds like a real organ. Very crunchy guitar. It sounds like something from the persona 5 OST.

It's nice to work in segments and see what works along the way. With virtual instuments it hard du evaluate if you only create for example one note.

For example, you are now part of the SOS Forum community so you have a ready made group you can ask. You might find that the problem has already been solved, or you might develop a better understanding of the best ways to approach a solution.

This is true. It is much better to learn from others than to fail at your objective.

I remember that you had an idea for a sample instrument. You asked here and got a lot of useful feedback about how much work is required and the type of facilities used by the companies making sampled instruments. But you were also surprised that some thought that the instrument you were unhappy with would be useful in a different context..

Yes, that is correct. I can see now that this is a project for professionals. Maybe more experimental work would be a better fit, but then there are less reference points on how to go about things.

And while it might not be as simple as you thought to make that sampled instrument, it is possible that you could take that idea to an established company.

I don't know why an establish company would bother with my at best amateurish attempts.

What type of idea. Don't say what it is.
Just give a hint of it, which field.

when I am done with one virtual instrument library I try to think of a new idea. No I am thinking of doing an instrument using the bow on an electric bass.

2014-2017 when I was involved in the ewekay tech scene in old street shoreditch :
so many folk were proposing this and that tech idea.
Often thymes these ideas weren't different better than already existing tech,
nor adding anything of valoo nor solving problems,
nor filling an important gap in the market.

More often they were flights of fancy which is fine I have flights of fancy.

Whichever idea we have :

If others have done it, does our idea have a different angle does somethings better.

I'm fine with getting something at all useful for now.

Does our idea add valoo and or does it solve a problem/s.
If it adds valoo then it doesn't necessarily need to solve a problem.
An example is Air BnB $108Billion market capitalisation. It's valoo is in one platform bringing together various parts of the renting World.
Air BnB has created problems in some cities where its been banned : Amsterdam, Barcelona, Berlin, London, New York, Paris.

Does our idea fill an important gap in the market.
By important will the consumer benefit from this filling the gap. If the consumer doesn't benefit then whichever gap we fill won't have traction.
A tech that filled an important gap is those apps that makes it easier to give food to the needy as ShareTheMeal.

My goal is to create sample libraries that are of great quality, that sit well in mixes and make it easier for producers and mixers to get a great record.

[Wonks]

If you are going to sample an instrument then you either want it to sound really good - which means a good instrument, good playing, good room, good mic technique, or you go for the general soundscape(?) approach and have noises that are going to be useable but don't fit into the standard set of instrumental sample libraries.

So if you want to do a bowed electric bass, then fine, but you really need to learn to play it well first, so that it sounds good and you can get consistent samples.

Unless you set the bass up with raised A and D strings, you'll find it very hard to bow those strings in isolation.

Likewise with the guitar. You can hit the outer E strings easily enough, but the 4 middle strings really can't be played in isolation. Which means you are playing chords, which is a very different type of sample set.

[Drew Stephenson]

The other thing to be aware of is that round-wound strings will eat your bow. The horse hairs will get trapped in the string and snap regularly.

[amanise]

There are these little devices though...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBow

Mostly used on 6 string guitars but one time used by someone called Michael Manring on a bass fitted with very light strings, apparently.

You'd have to spend up to £100 on one by the look of it - but probably easier to use effectively than a bow on a flat set of strings.

[Drew Stephenson]

They don't tend to work on basses though, they only really have enough energy to excite the g-string.

[amanise]

They don't tend to work on basses though, they only really have enough energy to excite the g-string.

Yes - the Wiki article said something about someone else using two of them at a time!

[N i g e l]

The other thing to be aware of is that round-wound strings will eat your bow. The horse hairs will get trapped in the string and snap regularly.

true for cymbals too, maybe all metal things that are slightly rough.
For samping, the bow should last a good while as its only receiving intermittent use.
Avoid rosin if possible, its messy and it gets everywhere

Jimmy Page - Dazed & confused, bow life ~ 3mins.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sarm8rzdY3Y

[zenguitar]

And while it might not be as simple as you thought to make that sampled instrument, it is possible that you could take that idea to an established company.

I don't know why an establish company would bother with my at best amateurish attempts.

I was not suggesting that the company would publish your instrument. I was suggesting that you take your idea to them and work with them to make it properly using their recording and sampling skills and facilities.

Andy

[PippaPumpkin]

If you are going to sample an instrument then you either want it to sound really good - which means a good instrument, good playing, good room, good mic technique, or you go for the general soundscape(?) approach and have noises that are going to be useable but don't fit into the standard set of instrumental sample libraries.

I'm going to try to improve on these factors.

So if you want to do a bowed electric bass, then fine, but you really need to learn to play it well first, so that it sounds good and you can get consistent samples.

Yes, I'm going to practice first.

Unless you set the bass up with raised A and D strings, you'll find it very hard to bow those strings in isolation.

My idea is to use capos to lower the strings not in use.

Likewise with the guitar. You can hit the outer E strings easily enough, but the 4 middle strings really can't be played in isolation. Which means you are playing chords, which is a very different type of sample set.

I hope the capos are going to work with the guitar as well.

The other thing to be aware of is that round-wound strings will eat your bow. The horse hairs will get trapped in the string and snap regularly.

I haven't thought of that. My bow is most likely synthetic hair, maybe it's okay.

There are these little devices though...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBow

Mostly used on 6 string guitars but one time used by someone called Michael Manring on a bass fitted with very light strings, apparently.

You'd have to spend up to £100 on one by the look of it - but probably easier to use effectively than a bow on a flat set of strings.

Interesting. I'm going to try it with the bow first. There is still doubt whether or not it is worth doing this project at all yet.

Jimmy Page - Dazed & confused, bow life ~ 3mins.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sarm8rzdY3Y

The hair is all messed up...

I was not suggesting that the company would publish your instrument. I was suggesting that you take your idea to them and work with them to make it properly using their recording and sampling skills and facilities.

It might be worth a try.

[amanise]

...

There are these little devices though...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBow

Mostly used on 6 string guitars but one time used by someone called Michael Manring on a bass fitted with very light strings, apparently.

You'd have to spend up to £100 on one by the look of it - but probably easier to use effectively than a bow on a flat set of strings.

Interesting. I'm going to try it with the bow first. There is still doubt whether or not it is worth doing this project at all yet.
...

Sure. If it doesn't work out with a bow, do take care to try the idea out at a shop if you can though - bearing in mind Drew's comment. That is if you decide to go ahead. You might be able to find a shop selling them and see how well they work on bass strings - if at all. Better that than spend money to find out they don't work after all.

[PippaPumpkin]

Sure. If it doesn't work out with a bow, do take care to try the idea out at a shop if you can though - bearing in mind Drew's comment. That is if you decide to go ahead. You might be able to find a shop selling them and see how well they work on bass strings - if at all. Better that than spend money to find out they don't work after all.

I'm going to ask for it at my local shop next time I'm in the area. I hope they won't laugh at me, when I use it on bass.

[Wonks]

I really don’t think capos will do enough. They’d have to be right at the top of the neck to have any effect and they’d be in the way.

Tape would probably work a lot better.

Give it a go.

[amanise]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Electric-Erase ... 86&sr=8-35

Just a thought. I remember Sir Paul McCartney saying how he used to spend a lot of time with one of these underneath an upright piano using it to 'bow' the piano strings. It's a lot cheaper an option for experimentation.

[Arpangel]

You are overthinking, just "do" and see what happens if it’s a conceptual issue, or, just press the undo button if it's technical.

[PippaPumpkin]

Tape would probably work a lot better.

Give it a go.

Got it.

Just a thought. I remember Sir Paul McCartney saying how he used to spend a lot of time with one of these underneath an upright piano using it to 'bow' the piano strings. It's a lot cheaper an option for experimentation.

I have never seen such a thing.

You are overthinking, just "do" and see what happens if it’s a conceptual issue, or, just press the undo button if it's technical.

I'll try my best.

[amanise]

...

Just a thought. I remember Sir Paul McCartney saying how he used to spend a lot of time with one of these underneath an upright piano using it to 'bow' the piano strings. It's a lot cheaper an option for experimentation.

I have never seen such a thing.

...

They are like an electric drill, but they hold an eraser instead of a drill. If you start one spinning and touch a string with the eraser tip - it should act like a rubber bow and make the string sound continuously. Which is what you want, right? McCartney used a very old version of one on something on Sgt Pepper I think - but on piano strings. I used to use them back in the 1980s when I worked in a drawing office. Worth a try?

[PippaPumpkin]

They are like an electric drill, but they hold an eraser instead of a drill. If you start one spinning and touch a string with the eraser tip - it should act like a rubber bow and make the string sound continuously. Which is what you want, right? McCartney used a very old version of one on something on Sgt Pepper I think - but on piano strings. I used to use them back in the 1980s when I worked in a drawing office. Worth a try?

I would have never thought of that. I am suprised that they had stuff like this back then. I'm going to include it in my notes for now. I feel like it may be a good idea to work on something completely different before to returning to samples to regain perspective. It's a mess.