The Sounds of Natsuiro no Nancy

[PippaPumpkin]

When I f listened to Yu Hayamis Natsuiro no Nancy for the first time I thought to myself 'What are they doing? This is outrageous! Someone, call the soundpolice!'

This to me is the Citizen Kane of craziness in popular music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ugRY9AKAf0

Okay, maybe it is not that bad. But I have no clue what I am hearing. I recognize of course the drums, the bass, the guitar, the vocals but what is the rest?

If you take look at one of her live performances they often used half an orchestra. I take it the instrumentation was a deliberate choice in the studio version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GcQsKvyIgk

[amanise]

Phew! That's quite frantic! I need a lie down after watching both of those

I think I can safely say that's the first time I've heard any JPop. There's something very different about it to what I'm used to. Might have to listen again after I've had a rest

[ConcertinaChap]

I'm sorry, it left me completely cold (which probably says more about me than the music). Never mind, there's lots of music out there I do like.

CC

[PippaPumpkin]

I'm sorry, it left me completely cold (which probably says more about me than the music). Never mind, there's lots of music out there I do like.

CC

That's okay, it is a very peculiar type of thing.

Phew! That's quite frantic! I need a lie down after watching both of those

I think I can safely say that's the first time I've heard any JPop. There's something very different about it to what I'm used to. Might have to listen again after I've had a rest

It will grow on you I'm sure.

If you do listen to it again. What are these sounds? Are they analog synthesizers?

[N i g e l]

probably its just the usual equipment but played in a different style, with different cultural references.

the Yello Magic Orchestra use the same equipment as other musicians but create a different vibe. I think they use samplers and sequencers during live performance for the tricky bits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Ma ... nstruments

my fav is "cosmic surfin"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTVetCbj5bc

[amanise]

I'm sorry, it left me completely cold (which probably says more about me than the music). Never mind, there's lots of music out there I do like.

CC

That's okay, it is a very peculiar type of thing.

Phew! That's quite frantic! I need a lie down after watching both of those

I think I can safely say that's the first time I've heard any JPop. There's something very different about it to what I'm used to. Might have to listen again after I've had a rest

It will grow on you I'm sure.

If you do listen to it again. What are these sounds? Are they analog synthesizers?

Yes - it's always good to try new things. I love African music as well, so I'll definitely listen to that again. I agree with Nigel, the instrumentation does sound like conventional synths to me (I'm no expert - guitars are my thing really). It reminds me of some of the 1970s commercial disco from the 1970s.

[PippaPumpkin]

the Yello Magic Orchestra use the same equipment as other musicians but create a different vibe. I think they use samplers and sequencers during live performance for the tricky bits.

my fav is "cosmic surfin"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTVetCbj5bc

Yes I know of them. Very nice sounds and the dancing is excellent.

The analogsynths sound great, much better than VSTs I have heard.

Yes - it's always good to try new things. I love African music as well, so I'll definitely listen to that again.

Don't force yourself though.

I agree with Nigel, the instrumentation does sound like conventional synths to me (I'm no expert - guitars are my thing really). It reminds me of some of the 1970s commercial disco from the 1970s.

I have heard behringer does decent copies. Maybe I get a real analogsynth myself one day.

[amanise]

the Yello Magic Orchestra use the same equipment as other musicians but create a different vibe. I think they use samplers and sequencers during live performance for the tricky bits.

my fav is "cosmic surfin"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTVetCbj5bc

Yes I know of them. Very nice sounds and the dancing is excellent.

The analogsynths sound great, much better than VSTs I have heard.

Yes - it's always good to try new things. I love African music as well, so I'll definitely listen to that again.

Don't force yourself though.

I agree with Nigel, the instrumentation does sound like conventional synths to me (I'm no expert - guitars are my thing really). It reminds me of some of the 1970s commercial disco from the 1970s.

I have heard behringer does decent copies. Maybe I get a real analogsynth myself one day.

You can get pretty much anything as software instruments these days. Those keyboard sounds you liked because they sounded like real instruments were actually very good software. The first was a sample based Rhodes V8 piano, and the second was a Magix vintage organ modeler, but routed through a Universal Audio Waterfall rotary speaker plug in. Software is amazing now. You can easily make up sounds that have never existed before without real instruments. My big problem is drums.

[PippaPumpkin]

Those keyboard sounds you liked because they sounded like real instruments were actually very good software. The first was a sample based Rhodes V8 piano, and the second was a Magix vintage organ modeler, but routed through a Universal Audio Waterfall rotary speaker plug in.

You made them sound very believable.

Software is amazing now. You can easily make up sounds that have never existed before without real instruments.

Yes, that is interesting. When you use experimental sounding instruments, how do you approach them? Like a analog pad sound, I would use them like string or organ, right? As soon as the sounds get exerpimental it is not as clear how to use them to me.

My big problem is drums.

Why drums?

[amanise]

Those keyboard sounds you liked because they sounded like real instruments were actually very good software. The first was a sample based Rhodes V8 piano, and the second was a Magix vintage organ modeler, but routed through a Universal Audio Waterfall rotary speaker plug in.

You made them sound very believable.

Software is amazing now. You can easily make up sounds that have never existed before without real instruments.

Yes, that is interesting. When you use experimental sounding instruments, how do you approach them? Like a analog pad sound, I would use them like string or organ, right? As soon as the sounds get exerpimental it is not as clear how to use them to me.

My big problem is drums.

Why drums?

You're too kind - but its all MIDI doing the work with anything on keyboards with me. Excellent synth software is the key - hence the expensive Rhodes piano synth.

I do use a mixture of MIDI synths and a real bass guitar for bass sounds. The bass guitar I have is a nice one, and I play that. The MIDI bass lines I just browse the DN1E (usually) soft synth for a sound that is a close fit to what I think the track section needs - and then I tweak it here and there and maybe add a slow and shallow wah effect or something to make it move around a bit. I do it in the mix itself rather than on its own so I can hear in real time how it sounds in there with everything else. There was a very old song by Lou reed called 'Walk on the Wild Side' in which a wonderful guy called Herbie Flowers interwove two separate bass lines - which was amazing. He did it to get an extra session fee. I like trying to emulate that.

Drums are really hard to do well. In my view - there's no replacement for a human drummer or percussionist. But they are quite rare now, and impossible to work with in your spare room. I think the loss of the human drummer is one of the saddest things in modern music.

[Arpangel]

Sounds like throw away trash pop to me, with every single cheesy cliche thrown in, musically and visually.
Not that it's bad, it just is what it is.

[PippaPumpkin]

I do use a mixture of MIDI synths and a real bass guitar for bass sounds. The bass guitar I have is a nice one, and I play that.

How do you decide to go for midi bass or real bass?

There was a very old song by Lou reed called 'Walk on the Wild Side' in which a wonderful guy called Herbie Flowers interwove two separate bass lines - which was amazing. He did it to get an extra session fee. I like trying to emulate that.

But don't you get phasing and a blurry mess in the low end this way?

Drums are really hard to do well. In my view - there's no replacement for a human drummer or percussionist. But they are quite rare now, and impossible to work with in your spare room. I think the loss of the human drummer is one of the saddest things in modern music.

Yes I agree. The drums in your example is a drum machine that plays on the grid right? If you had real drums, you could pitch your track to atlus, they are going to release Persona 6 in 2025 and it fits their style.

Sounds like throw away trash pop to me, with every single cheesy cliche thrown in, musically and visually.
Not that it's bad, it just is what it is.

Yes, it was the track for a cola ad campaign. I was just wondering about the sounds. I thought it might be some old hammond organ type of technology, but it might just be synths that were used in western popular music as well, but in a different way.

[PippaPumpkin]

Oops...

[amanise]

I do use a mixture of MIDI synths and a real bass guitar for bass sounds. The bass guitar I have is a nice one, and I play that.

How do you decide to go for midi bass or real bass?

There was a very old song by Lou reed called 'Walk on the Wild Side' in which a wonderful guy called Herbie Flowers interwove two separate bass lines - which was amazing. He did it to get an extra session fee. I like trying to emulate that.

But don't you get phasing and a blurry mess in the low end this way?

Drums are really hard to do well. In my view - there's no replacement for a human drummer or percussionist. But they are quite rare now, and impossible to work with in your spare room. I think the loss of the human drummer is one of the saddest things in modern music.

Yes I agree. The drums in your example is a drum machine that plays on the grid right?
...

I'm not a natural bass player, but I can play a bass better than a keyboard, so if I want a really complicated bass line that may make me choose a synth and MIDI - or - if I want a sound I can't get with a bass guitar. I usually use a bass synth to represent the left hand of a keyboard player, and then counterpoint that with a higher bass line on a guitar and play that myself. In terms of phase - you don't get problems if you counterpoint two different parts rather than try and play the same part on 2 instruments. Otherwise you'd just end up with mud in the low end and one bass fighting the other - just like the keyboard player and bass player in a band always end up fighting. Herbie's 2 bass parts are very different - its worth listening to the song. You are right about the drums in the sample track - it's very old TR808 samples arranged on a grid. It's ok if you downplay them in the mix and get your virtuosity expressed in other ways.

[PippaPumpkin]

I'm not a natural bass player, but I can play a bass better than a keyboard, so if I want a really complicated bass line that may make me choose a synth and MIDI

Okay, that is understandable. Don't you think Midi bass sounds a bit robotic at times?

- or - if I want a sound I can't get with a bass guitar. I usually use a bass synth to represent the left hand of a keyboard player, and then counterpoint that with a higher bass line on a guitar and play that myself.

That is interesting. I have never done anything like that. I was thinking about using low piano notes and adding slides of a bass guitar to get the feel I wanted. But I do not own a piano, so it is just a concept.

In terms of phase - you don't get problems if you counterpoint two different parts rather than try and play the same part on 2 instruments. Otherwise you'd just end up with mud in the low end and one bass fighting the other - just like the keyboard player and bass player in a band always end up fighting.

Yes that is no good.

Herbie's 2 bass parts are very different - its worth listening to the song.

Okay, I have to check it out.

You are right about the drums in the sample track - it's very old TR808 samples arranged on a grid. It's ok if you downplay them in the mix and get your virtuosity expressed in other ways.

I agree. It would be nice if there was a drummer to collaborate with you, that would make it even better, I think.

[amanise]

Yes, MIDI can be robotic if you don't go the extra mile and get in there to mess things up like a real pianist would. Sometimes that robotic feel might be what you want though - right? Drummers A world of debate there! The best drummers I've worked with have all led lives right in the edge of chaos. The ones that were easy collaborators? Often missing something in the drumming department. Also - you have to really know what you're doing to get a drum kit properly worked into the mix. My 'studio' isn't big enough - and the neighbours would have a fit

[James Perrett]

Drums are really hard to do well. In my view - there's no replacement for a human drummer or percussionist. But they are quite rare now, and impossible to work with in your spare room. I think the loss of the human drummer is one of the saddest things in modern music.

I would say that drum samples can work well provided you play them in a sympathetic style. Whenever I've used programmed drums I always think about what I would play for real and adjust the drum programs to match. I will also push and pull the timing a little in places.

If I had my drums all ready to go and miked up it would often be much faster to record a real drum track but, for a demo at least, it is usually quicker for me to use programmed drums.

[tea for two]

Chris Blackwell drummed for Robert Plant in 2 world tours various albums i.e. World Class drummer used to post a lot on ere foruume as Commander (Stingray) used Superior Drummer samples a lot : sometimes played from Korg PadKontrol finger drum pads.
Obv I'm not a World Class drummer so I would sound pants in comparison which goes to reiterate : it's always more the player less the kit whether actual or sampled.

I'm trifle intrigued by Korg Kr55 acoustic drum machine.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/korg-kr-55-pro
Here's demo of Korg Kr55.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q6MLWT25H ... A1NQ%3D%3D

[PippaPumpkin]

Also - you have to really know what you're doing to get a drum kit properly worked into the mix. My 'studio' isn't big enough - and the neighbours would have a fit

Show them your music, they will be understanding.

Whenever I've used programmed drums I always think about what I would play for real and adjust the drum programs to match. I will also push and pull the timing a little in places.

I wish I was any good at it. Do you program the drums without context and overdub the other instruments, or how does it work?

[amanise]

James will have his own preferences shaped by his drumming experience. My order of play varies depending on whether I have words first - or a backing track idea without words first. If I have words, they set the basic rhythm, so the drum patterns reflect the rhythm that the words make. If there are no words yet - I just decide what timing signature and basic rhythm I want to work in - and then do the drum patterns from there. In both cases, the drums are the first thing entered into the DAW - then a bass line or two, then a keyboard part or three, then a rhythm guitar, then vocals, and then finally a lead guitar part. Every time I've been in a studio setting with a real band - the drum and bass parts have been the first to get laid down - but that hasn't happened to me for many years.

[James Perrett]

Do you program the drums without context and overdub the other instruments, or how does it work?

I've played real drums without context when I've been working on song writing demos but usually I'll lay the first instruments down to a basic programmed beat which would be similar to the beat I would finally use. Often I'm working with real players and they will push and pull the timing a little in parts of the song so, at a later stage, I will start to add fills to the basic beat and also adjust the timing to better match the real players.

[PippaPumpkin]

I've played real drums without context when I've been working on song writing demos but usually I'll lay the first instruments down to a basic programmed beat which would be similar to the beat I would finally use. Often I'm working with real players and they will push and pull the timing a little in parts of the song so, at a later stage, I will start to add fills to the basic beat and also adjust the timing to better match the real players.

Okay, thanks. I'm going to try this myself.