61 key advice

[jrichview]

I’m primarily a guitarist in cover bands, but there are songs where I’d like to play a keyboard part. I started on piano as a kid, so I feel like I can handle most things I’d be asked to do. Problem is stage space is usually at a premium, so 88 key synths are probably impractical. I think a 61 would work.

Considering a Korg Nautilus with AT. Wish there was 61 version of KurzweI’ll PC4.

Should have mentioned my bands cover classic rock (60s - newer) and disco & some pop.

What would you buy.

[ajay_m]

61 keys is generally enough unless you want to split parts - one interesting compromise is to go with 73 notes although the choices are rather less.

I had a play with the Yamaha MX61 while picking up a monitor speaker the other day, and thought the sounds were pretty good, and it's priced realistically.

[The Elf]

Might be worth considering a secondhand 61-key Kronos. The keyboard on that thing is extremely good IMO (though I hate its operating system).

[adrian_k]

I’m using a Roland V-Combo 61 key keyboard. Occasionally wish I’d bought the 73 key version when I run out of keys at the low end, but can generally be addressed by shifting down an octave.

[MarkOne]

I think the important thing is to look a the overall dimensions of the board. Some 61 key models have an aircraft landing deck hanging off the side for the mod and pitch wheels. Conversely there are some 73, 76 and 88 key models with nothing other than keys, with the expression controls above (Nord, for instance)

For instance the Kurzweil KB4-7 is only 17cm longer than the Roland Fandom 06.

[sonics]

I’m using a Roland V-Combo 61 key keyboard.

So am I, a VR-09. Incredibly lightweight 'board, but lacking a really quality action. It does have organ triggering, which is why I bought it. I know of no other synth with that facility, apart from the VR-730, which has always seemed overpriced to me.

[adrian_k]

I’m using a Roland V-Combo 61 key keyboard.

So am I, a VR-09. Incredibly lightweight 'board, but lacking a really quality action. It does have organ triggering, which is why I bought it. I know of no other synth with that facility, apart from the VR-730, which has always seemed overpriced to me.

I agree about the action. I’m a guitarist and when I bought it I didn’t have a lot of experience of keyboards. I do like having everything to hand though, not much menu diving required. Also not too expensive. (61 key)

[Lostgallifreyan]

One way to get a better action is to get a synth from a good maker, something old, with sounds no-one wants. The price might be low, but the hardware might be very good, and it will definitely open up choices considerably, to look into this. Check Ebay for likely prices and easy availability. Ebay are strict on sellers too so the odds are that what you see IS what you'll get if you buy one.You might even get nice extras, like a flightcase, at a cost that could be less than the value of the case, let alone the price of a recently made controller of equal quality.

[sonics]

One way to get a better action is to get a synth from a good maker, something old, with sounds no-one wants.

Yes, but I believe that's also opening you up to a keyboard that's been heavily used and/or doesn't perform to spec any more. Also, IME, there are very few honest sellers; most will lie about the history of an instrument, or simply don't know it. Sad but true, but that's what I've found.

But you can always get lucky.

[Lostgallifreyan]

One way to get a better action is to get a synth from a good maker, something old, with sounds no-one wants.

Yes, but I believe that's also opening you up to a keyboard that's been heavily used and/or doesn't perform to spec any more. Also, IME, there are very few honest sellers; most will lie about the history of an instrument, or simply don't know it. Sad but true, but that's what I've found.

But you can always get lucky.

True, but that's why we have an edge. If we know the form, we're better off placing a bet if we don't go into a bidding war because that could mean there's someone out there who's overestimating the value.

The biggest weakness is the number of moving parts, but a seller who is willing to show a good view along the keys is likely wanting to make it clear that even height demonstrates a lack of heavy use on specific keys. The more advance disclosure, the better chance of getting refunds for 'significantly not as described' if something's wrong. I've seen many listings by sellers who clearly know that being able to do this can get them buyers that other seller's can't. In other words, it actually pays to be honest! The biggest risk is that a truly good presentation can bump up the price to the point where it may defeat the purpose of getting it cheap!

Most times I buy used on Ebay I get a good deal, often extremely good, but I do check out details of what's on offer well in advance. If the deal looks like sliding by before I'm ready, I just let it slide.

Last but not least, something good with a few miles on it, is often a much safer bet than something new with no record of long-term performance. Old high-end gear is the safest bet of all, and the best bang per buck.

EDIT:
If you also buy a dirt-cheap junker you have parts for the good one. Given the number of parts some sellers have scavenged to sell separately for scalper's prices, this is a good way to get some cheap future-proofing for older gear. Even the scalpers have a use! They often cite lists of compatibility for keys various, so you can see that detail and deduce the cheapest junker to buy for viable parts...

[Hugh Robjohns]

I think I'd go for a Korg keystage, either a 49 or 61 note version, and use it to drive virtual instruments from a laptop or a tablet.

£600 for the 61 note version, nice action, and future proof with midi 2.0, mpe and poly aftertouch. It even includes a built-in audio interface outputting your computer sounds.

If space is an issue, the keystage is worth considering.

https://www.korg.co.uk/products/keystage

[Folderol]

I contacted Korg to ask if they do (or would) make information about the MIDI 2 property messages they recognise available, as I would like to see if we can link it with Yoshimi. Not heard anything back yet.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Have you thought about joining the Midi Association as a manufacturer to access the full specs?

Https://midi.org/midi-2-0

[Folderol]

I did!
However, I can't get anywhere through the website. I log in, then go to look at the specs, and to download any of them I'm asked to log in (while I already am) and clicking on the login button tells me I already am, and I can't get anywhere

[Lostgallifreyan]

I did!
However, I can't get anywhere through the website. I log in, then go to look at the specs, and to download any of them I'm asked to log in (while I already am) and clicking on the login button tells me I already am, and I can't get anywhere

That might be due to more than one instance of a browser window, messing with cookies. It's one of those things which decades of development never seems to fix. They might make assumptions that only work if you access their site with the first instance of a browser load, then continue navigating using only that instance, and you might have to hunt down and kill their cookies too, before trying to connect.

(For the record, I find this SOS site plays very nicely in this regard, it's never cause me any unrest).

[Folderol]

Well I managed to get what I wanted... eventually i.e. the MIDI2 overall spec. it is extremely dense reading
I now have a (very coarse) understanding. However it seems that a lot of the capabilities are subject to agreement between the device manufacturers, which could easily become a recipe for walled gardens. This is exactly what I was afraid of.

The website is very poorly designed, and half the time doesn't seem to know whether you are logged in or not!

[progger]

Hey there! A guy with a couple thousand keyboard cover gigs under his belt, here. Of course, we all have to eventually figure out what's right for us, and I can't promise what you'll like, but I can certainly share what's worked for me.

For what it's worth: I'm reasonably spoiled nowadays, with backline generally being handled by the various entities I work with. But for a long time I was in the gig trenches of New York City, so I needed a keyboard that was light and portable (subway-friendly) and that had everything I needed.

These days, I think the best version of that is the Roland Juno DS61. It's light, it's cheap, the sounds are VERY good for a board that inexpensive, and with some light tweaking it can sound almost alarmingly good. It's far from perfect but for the money it's outstanding (and I far prefer it to Yamaha's MX series, although I quite like Yamaha instruments in general).

The step-up in price gets you into some very favorable territory. The Roland Fantom-06 (not to be confused with the aggravatingly similarly named, and MUCH more expensive, Fantom-6) or the Yamaha MODX6 are both very worthy boards. I haven't used the Korg Nautilus personally but I've been impressed with how they sound in the hands of others, so a 61-key version of one of those could be a good choice as well.

However you go, 61 keys is just fine. Not good for practicing your McCoy Tyner transcriptions but perfectly good for playing a thousand cover gigs. Have at it, enjoy!

[The Elf]

Worth mentioning that there's no aftertouch on the DS-61, which may or may not be important to the OP.

And the divisive waggle-stick, rather than wheels...

[tea for two]

If in Blighty, there is a Trinity 61 at an attractive strating price on an acution site ending approx 22hours. Usual caveats esp a near 3decade older gear.

I won a Trinity ProX88 quite a few years earlier at a rather attractive price. Seller was going to bring it in person as sometimes worked in london : some unforseen circumstances happened to seller so had to cancel the sale.

[sonics]

Hey there! A guy with a couple thousand keyboard cover gigs under his belt, here.

Would you mind sharing your opinions about the various keyboard actions? I'd find that most helpful.

[progger]

Would you mind sharing your opinions about the various keyboard actions? I'd find that most helpful.

Hmm... Well, I'm not really ever thrilled with the action on any modern unweighted 61-key workhorse keyboard, unfortunately, it's always a "learn to live with it" kind of relationship for me. With small and light boards, the action certainly isn't the attraction.

The Roland boards have my favorite sounds of all these, but their keys are a bit narrower than others. I think Yamaha uses full-sized keys on all their boards, but I could be mistaken. Regardless, none of these will be ideal for working on your Chopin nocturnes...

I haven't used any of the Studiologic Numa boards, but they'll undoubtedly have better action than any of the ones I listed. I doubt their sounds will be as good, though!

[ajay_m]

Worth mentioning that there's no aftertouch on the DS-61, which may or may not be important to the OP.

And the divisive waggle-stick, rather than wheels...

These days I'd regard aftertouch as fairly important as for organ lines for example it's useful for ramping up Leslie speed without faffing with foot pedals. I've never understood the controversy over the joystick. You can easily control pitch and modulation single handed whereas the conventional wheels are much more difficult to juggle. With the caveat that the joystick is of course spring loaded on both axes unlike a mod wheel. It'd be nice to have an option to disable that sometimes, if someone ever came up with a joystick where the springs were magnetic fields or something that could be quite nice.
I recall on my old dx7 removing the spring on the pitch wheel so both wheels worked the same, allowing you to make a pitch change and have the note fade out on it without having to hold the wheel

[The Elf]

Worth mentioning that there's no aftertouch on the DS-61, which may or may not be important to the OP.

And the divisive waggle-stick, rather than wheels...

I've never understood the controversy over the joystick.

I understand it.

For pitchbend I prefer it over a pitchbend wheel, especially an un-sprung wheel - ugh!!

The distance of travel for modulation is way too small, though. Again I like the spring action - would that all mod wheels were sprung - but it's impossible to achieve any amount of subtelty and finesse.

As for aftertouch - it should be on every synth keyboard. Preferably poly, too.

[Arpangel]

Worth mentioning that there's no aftertouch on the DS-61, which may or may not be important to the OP.

And the divisive waggle-stick, rather than wheels...

I've never understood the controversy over the joystick.

I understand it.

For pitchbend I prefer it over a pitchbend wheel, especially an un-sprung wheel - ugh!!

The distance of travel for modulation is way too small, though. Again I like the spring action - would that all mod wheels were sprung - but it's impossible to achieve any amount of subtelty and finesse.

As for aftertouch - it should be on every synth keyboard. Preferably poly, too.

I never use pitch wheels, sprung or not, and modulation wheels have to be unsprung, if not, I can't leave them in one position for any length of time, essential for me.
I understand your needs though, it's a shame this whole shebang can’t be switchable.

[The Elf]

modulation wheels have to be unsprung, if not, I can't leave them in one position for any length of time, essential for me.

If I needed modulation to remain on for some time I wouldn't choose the mod wheel for the purpose, but I understand that some synths may not offer a different solution.