Mini - PC

[OneWorld]

A friend is setting up his computer for music, is going to use Cubase 13. And it will be relatively light use eg say 8 audio tracks, 8 MIDI and a handful of VSTi, Groove Agent, Halion Sonic and some Cubase Synths

The computer he has bought is a Dell Optilex 5000
Specs....
I7-12700 CPU
32GB RAM
1TB NVME SSD SAMSUNG 980 PRO
5 USB PORTS
1 USB-C
Onboard Intel VDU

I would say, this would be adequate for light-medium Cubase 13 use, though the onboard graphics I am not sure about.

Anything else I need advise on?

He will hopes to use a Thunderbolt interface, which I 'think' the Optiplex 5000 has, thouggh I am still confused about USB 3/USB C and Thunderbolt.

I have told him many perfectly adequate modern interfaces, even with 8 inputs, are happy with USB 2

However, I am not convinced by these MINI PCs, they just don't look 'meaty' enough, that said, they have the specs and so perhaps my reservations/prejudices are unfounded? eg i7/12th Gen, 32Gig RAM, NVME, USB 3 satisfies all the requirement despite the titchy size of the thing.

Anything thoughts please.

[adrian_k]

Is it smaller than a laptop? I’m running 20 tracks, mix of audio, vsti and midi on an 11th gen i3 laptop, only two USB ports and stuff hanging off a USB hub including an external HDD. No issues at all. Sounds like the mini PC is meatier than mine?
(Edit) with 16GB ram.

[Wonks]

It doesn't have Thunderbolt. If it did it would say so.

AFAIK, you can run a USB 2 or 3 interface on Thunderbolt, but not Thunderbolt on a USB 3 port. My new PC has an add-on Thunderbolt card as well as the standard USB 3 ports.

A lot of the performance increase (lower latency) is from the Thunderbolt port itself. With standard drivers, USB 3 doesn't really offer increased latency performance over USB 2.

With that processor, the Intel UHD Graphics 770 has a maximum resolution of 4096 x 2160 at 60Hz over HDMI, but if you use the DisplayPort, you can go all the way up to 7680 x 4320 at 60Hz.

[OneWorld]

Is it smaller than a laptop? I’m running 20 tracks, mix of audio, vsti and midi on an 11th gen i3 laptop, only two USB ports and stuff hanging off a USB hub including an external HDD. No issues at all. Sounds like the mini PC is meatier than mine?
(Edit) with 16GB ram.

When you say 'smaller' do you mean physically smaller? well yes it is, it is one of those mini-pcs, about 5 inches square and 2 inches deep, but don'r see how that affects the speed of the box, and hence my self-questioning "What's the problem?" irrespective of physical size it has the specs I listed above, but thought "Is there a catch?" seems not, a tiny computer can have the same grunt as a physically bigger one.

As it happens, there is a twist is the tale. He bought the computer as new, which indeed it is. But at the same time the seller (who seems to have set himself up as a computer retailer) sold another mini-pc with an identical spec, except it is a GEEKOM, not a DELL.

The GEEKCOM was considerably cheaper, but the seller sent the DELL to the person who bought the GEEKCOM, and the GEEKCOM to the person that bought the DELL (At £250 more!)

I say send it (The DELL back) and get the GEEKCOM, they are identical spec. So, if they are idfentical spec, the GEEKCOM will perform just5 as well as the DELL, one would think?

Wonks, I think this is where the issue of the Thunderbolt arises, the seller specifically stated the PC (GEEKCOM) does have a Thunderbolt port, that is what attracted my friend to it, except he's ended up with a DELL - at half price!

[adrian_k]

Might be worth checking if it has a fan and how loud it is, if recording in the same room.

[sonics]

Which Dell is it? If it's the OptiPlex Micro it'll be running the lower-power "T" processor, and be less powerful than processors in the bigger machines with more cooling.
It should run low-stress Cubase sessions fine, but I'd be tempted to spec up if VSTis are in use as well.

What is the Thunderbolt connection required for?

[OneWorld]

Might be worth checking if it has a fan and how loud it is, if recording in the same room.

So quiet you can hardly tell if it is on or not.

Re: The GEEKCOM v DELL issue, seems the GEEKCOM is easily the equivalent in quality and performance to the DELL and equivalent in cost as it happens so the bloke that got the GEEKCOM instead of the DELL is more than happy with it

So I am advising stick with the DELL, contrary to what I thought, there is room for a second drive for data, took minutes to fit, on opening the case, very neat. ONly thing is, the way the GEEKCOM case is made, it allows for an external graphics card. It seems though the onboard INTEL graphics is adequate for Cubase

[OneWorld]

Which Dell is it? If it's the OptiPlex Micro it'll be running the lower-power "T" processor, and be less powerful than processors in the bigger machines with more cooling.
It should run low-stress Cubase sessions fine, but I'd be tempted to spec up if VSTis are in use as well.

What is the Thunderbolt connection required for?

It is the 'T' processor#

It says in the specs - (25 MB cache, 12 cores, 20 threads, 1.40 GHz to 4.70 GHz, 35 W

On whatever website, the 1.40 ghz is in economy setting, 4.70 GHz in turbo boost, don't know how that works out, it was sold as 4.70 ghz, is it a BIOS setting?

I have this notion that audio interfaces that use Thunderbolt allow for lower latency, can handle far more data than USB 2.0

However, RME with their UFX interfaces get along fine with USB 2.0

A caveat though, I am sure I had read that external storage that communicates with the PC by way of Thunderbolt, transfers data far far faster than any USB, although we wouldn't be streaming from such a drive.

[James Perrett]

However, RME with their UFX interfaces get along fine with USB 2.0

Most USB audio interfaces work in Class Compliant mode. Most RME interfaces don't use Class Compliant mode unless you tell them to. Normally they use their own protocol which is supposed to give better performance than Class Compliant mode.

[sonics]

On whatever website, the 1.40 ghz is in economy setting, 4.70 GHz in turbo boost, don't know how that works out, it was sold as 4.70 ghz, is it a BIOS setting?

I have this notion that audio interfaces that use Thunderbolt allow for lower latency, can handle far more data than USB 2.0

The processor is limited by it's design. There maybe some speed/throttling options in the BIOS, but you still won't get the performance that a higher-power model would give you, of course.

You might need Thunderbolt if you were working with, say, 4/8k video, but for audio use USB should be absolutely adequate. The fastest storage will be the internal drive. If you can upgrade that (or if the second internal slot uses the same fast bus) then you could work from that drive to achieve the fastest results.

[OneWorld]

However, RME with their UFX interfaces get along fine with USB 2.0

Most USB audio interfaces work in Class Compliant mode. Most RME interfaces don't use Class Compliant mode unless you tell them to. Normally they use their own protocol which is supposed to give better performance than Class Compliant mode.

I thought that was the case with almost all interfaces? Hence the need to install drivers, and they, certainly in the case of Cubase had to use ASIO, unless of course the generic Windows option were used but latency figures made it as good as useless.

And, If for example RME’s drivers were written for USB 2, the software is written to comply with the hardware limitations of the hardware. So a driver written for X(USB2) and a driver written for USB C, would handle correspondingly higher data throughput?

I have noticed some more recent interfaces are boasting USB C and/or Thunderbolt connectors/functionality

[OneWorld]

On whatever website, the 1.40 ghz is in economy setting, 4.70 GHz in turbo boost, don't know how that works out, it was sold as 4.70 ghz, is it a BIOS setting?

I have this notion that audio interfaces that use Thunderbolt allow for lower latency, can handle far more data than USB 2.0

The processor is limited by it's design. There maybe some speed/throttling options in the BIOS, but you still won't get the performance that a higher-power model would give you, of course.

You might need Thunderbolt if you were working with, say, 4/8k video, but for audio use USB should be absolutely adequate. The fastest storage will be the internal drive. If you can upgrade that (or if the second internal slot uses the same fast bus) then you could work from that drive to achieve the fastest results.

On closer inspection it has the availability to add both a second NVME drive plus a 2.5 inch Sara hdd/ssd

I am still trying to figure out what they mean in the specs by ‘economy’ 1,4 ghz (inadequate) and turbo 4ghz (perfectly adequate) Tomorrow I’ll go back and have a look at the bios. I hope the pc is up to the job as my pal is so keen to get started, and I have recommended sos to him!

It could be quite a useful little tool if it works out, it boots in no time at all

[James Perrett]

So a driver written for X(USB2) and a driver written for USB C, would handle correspondingly higher data throughput?

I have noticed some more recent interfaces are boasting USB C and/or Thunderbolt connectors/functionality

RME maintain that USB2 is sufficient for any normal audio interface.

https://www.synthax.com/rme-why-usb-and ... %20updates.

Nowadays audio doesn't tax computers at all unless you are using many convolution based effects or AI programs.

[Wonks]

USB C is simply the shape of the port and the pin arrangement. It could be USB 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, 4.x and so on (as they keep adding USB versions).

So USB C only tells you that as a minimum it will be a USB 3.0 port.

[sonics]

I have noticed some more recent interfaces are boasting USB C and/or Thunderbolt connectors/functionality

The USB-C connectors are usually there to offer physical compatibility, as in most cases the interfaces still communicate using USB2.

A Thunderbolt connection will usually restrict your market to Mac users.

Something like the RME Fireface UFX+ covers all bases. It has a USB3 and Thunderbolt ports, and can be put into USB2 mode which "limits" how much can be done over USB, which is still quite a lot!

On closer inspection it has the availability to add both a second NVME drive plus a 2.5 inch Sara hdd/ssd

You need to make sure the second drive can operate at the same speed as the first for fastest data transfer rates. If the main NVMe drive is PCIe4, the second might be PCIe3, which is of course slower. The SATA SSD will be much slower still.

I am still trying to figure out what they mean in the specs by ‘economy’ 1,4 ghz (inadequate) and turbo 4ghz (perfectly adequate)

That's how the processor operates. Check the Intel website for further details.

[OneWorld]

So a driver written for X(USB2) and a driver written for USB C, would handle correspondingly higher data throughput?

I have noticed some more recent interfaces are boasting USB C and/or Thunderbolt connectors/functionality

RME maintain that USB2 is sufficient for any normal audio interface.

https://www.synthax.com/rme-why-usb-and ... %20updates.

Nowadays audio doesn't tax computers at all unless you are using many convolution based effects or AI programs.

If it is good enough for them it's good enough for me, and anyway, the other ports are USB 3.2, so in the absence of USB 4, it appears the PC will do the job. The issue with the CPU seems to be that the computer idles away at 1.4ghz, but when you put your foot on the gas, it goes up to 4.7ghz , which of course is adequate, it is only light use anyway, with the PC used exclusively for music, and not stuffed to the gunnels with all sorts of other stuff

[OneWorld]

Thanks for all the advice, things are a lot clearer now

[S.Crow]

USB C is simply the shape of the port and the pin arrangement. It could be USB 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, 4.x and so on (as they keep adding USB versions).

So USB C only tells you that as a minimum it will be a USB 3.0 port.

On a PC that is probably correct but you will also see USB 2.0 on phones and possibly tablets with a type C port.

[tea for two]

On a PC that is probably correct but you will also see USB 2.0 on phones and possibly tablets with a type C port.

On my 2021 Redmi Note 10 pro it is usb2.0 thru it's usbC port, whereas my older 2016 LG G5 is usb3.0 thru it's usbC port which on file transfers from computer is noticeable.

I think they are doing their best to befuddle us.
2.0 3.0 3.1gen1 3.2gen1 3.2gen2x1 3.2gen2x2
Some recent current Motherboards are helpful they have on their rear panel :
20 written next to a usbC port : 20Gbits/sec which is 3.2gen2x2;
10 written next to a usbC and or usbA port : 10Gbits/sec which is 3.2gen2x1;
5 written next to usbA port : 5Gbits/sec which is 3.2gen1.

Some Motherboard brands are offering on a pci-e card usb4 40Gibts/sec.
Soon enuff there will be usb4gen2 80Gbits/sec even upto 120Gbits/sec.

::

My Asus lappy has usb4.

[OneWorld]

USB C is simply the shape of the port and the pin arrangement. It could be USB 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, 4.x and so on (as they keep adding USB versions).

So USB C only tells you that as a minimum it will be a USB 3.0 port.

On a PC that is probably correct but you will also see USB 2.0 on phones and possibly tablets with a type C port.

The general point, about the USB 'C' is just the shape of the port, seems accurate.

Because they look alike, I keep thinking that Thunderbolt and USB 'C' are one and the same thing, but of course they aren't

I have checked on the computer (Dell Optiplex 5000) that the USB 'C' port is USB 3.2

But anyway, it is established USB2 is perfectly adequate for a modern interface, but I labour under the illusion that if USB2 offers 5gig capability, then USB3 offering 10gig, then latency figures on USB3 will be half those than USB2? and latency figures for Thunderbolt would be even shorter because of the 40gig speed/capability, seems not

[S.Crow]

You can increase bandwidth without reducing latency so don’t assume anything.
This is a general statement and not particularly about USB.

USB 3.2 by itself tells you little as you need to know the suffix as that gives you the performance.

Type C is a port so that’s a given but don’t assume anything else from that.

USB 3.x has a real world transfer rate starting at roughy 10x faster than USB 2.0, so clearly you want that for a drive.
The fastest version tops out at 4x that.

It’s all ridiculously convoluted though and that’s before you add in USB4.

[merlyn]

There's different modes for Thunderbolt. It can do video for example. The mode that audio interfaces use is to bring PCIe outside the computer. So it's the same (low) latency as PCIe. Unfortunately, with Thunderbolt being merged into USB 4 it looks like Thunderbolt is dead, going the same way as Firewire.

[djangodeadman]

A Thunderbolt connection will usually restrict your market to Mac

This isn’t really true. It’s perfectly possible to run a TB interface on a PC (I’ve been doing just that for over four years). You just need to make sure that the PC is adequately specified. It’s certainly true that this is more straightforward on a Mac, of course.

[S.Crow]

There's different modes for Thunderbolt. It can do video for example. The mode that audio interfaces use is to bring PCIe outside the computer. So it's the same (low) latency as PCIe. Unfortunately, with Thunderbolt being merged into USB 4 it looks like Thunderbolt is dead, going the same way as Firewire.

There’s a new version due out this year and it’s a much bigger jump than the last one was.
As long as Intel and Apple still keep developing and using it, respectfully, it has a life.
If Apple walk away then it will be on life support.

The problem with USB is that too many of the features are optional, which leads to confusion and fragmentation.

[tea for two]

It’s perfectly possible to run a TB interface on a PC (I’ve been doing just that for over four years). You just need to make sure that the PC is adequately specified.

Since I've had my asus ux371 lappy I thawd it had 2x usb4 ports. After reading your post I double checked : 2x thunderbolt4 ports. Yaaay !

The problem with USB is that too many of the features are optional, which leads to confusion and fragmentation.

Tru dat. Some usb4 ports are only 20Gbits/sec.
Tb4 mos def preferable to usb4.
https://satechi.net/blogs/usb-4-0-vs-th ... milarities