Need Help Understanding a Chord Progression

[Ardrin]

I'm a very new composer who just came up with a basic piece (I wanted to try writing in 3/4 time). I wrote in what I think are the chords, but I have no idea how it actually works. I do have some theory training (around RCM level 7). It seems to mainly use I, ii, iii, vi, and vii°, which I'm largely unfamiliar with. Any advice is helpful, thanks!

Link to composition: https://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/ ... c5edadc99c

[merlyn]

Where are you getting the names of chords? From the guitar fingerings? In the third bar the chord is D7, if the piano and guitar parts are taken together. The piano is playing a D triad arpeggio. The guitar is playing F#dim, which, if you think about it, is the top three notes of D7.

[Ardrin]

Thanks for the response. However, I don't see where you got the D triad. The right hand of the piano plays A - F# - A, the left hand plays A - F# - A - C - F# - A (which I'm pretty sure is an F#dim - I forgot that the 7th degree is dim and not minor), and the guitar plays 3 solid F#dim triads.
If it helps, the guitar was added after the piano part was finished and the chords were identified

[merlyn]

You're right -- in the fourth bar it's a F#dim triad. Functionally that's a V chord, and that makes sense as it's the top of a D7 chord. In the eighth bar there is a D in the bass, so that definitely is D7.

[Ardrin]

Oh yeah, you're right. Didn't catch that.
Just realized, all F#dims are also D7, right? Should I consider all vii(dim)s to also be dom7, or are there exceptions?

On an unrelated note, why does the I---ii---V7/vii(dim)---IV-V-V7/vii(dim) progression from m1-m4 work?

[RichardT]

In this piece I think all the F#dim chords are really D7s, yes.

You have one case (at least) where no player has a D, so strictly you can't call it D7, but that's still the harmonic feel.

[merlyn]

I see you've changed the score. You now have all the F#dims and D7s right. In bar six you have Bm(sus 2). Bsus2 is B C# F#, the chord in your score is B C D F#. Bmadd2 is B C# D F#, so the chord here is Bmaddb2, which isn't seen often. It's the only place you've used four notes in the guitar part.

In the same bar you also have F#7. Just looking at the score there are no accidentals. We would expect A# to make a F#7 chord. The diatonic seventh chord with an F# root is F#m7b5, also known as F# half diminished, the symbol for which is a degree sign (the same as a diminished) with a line through it.

In the second time box there is an E7 chord. Again there are no accidentals, specifically the G# we would expect in an E7, so this is Em7.

[RichardT]

I see you've changed the score. You now have all the F#dims and D7s right. In bar six you have Bm(sus 2). Bsus2 is B C# F#, the chord in your score is B C D F#. Bmadd2 is B C# D F#, so the chord here is Bmaddb2, which isn't seen often. It's the only place you've used four notes in the guitar part.

In the same bar you also have F#7. Just looking at the looking at the score there are no accidentals. We would expect A# to make a F#7 chord. The diatonic seventh chord with an F# root is F#m7b5, also known as F# half diminished, the symbol for which is a degree sign (the same as a diminished) with a line through it.

In the second time box there is an E7 chord. Again there are no accidentals, specifically the G# we would expect in an E7, so this is Em7.

I agree with Merlyn’s comments. For the Bm chord in bar 6, I would have a think as to whether any of the notes on piano part should be treated as passing notes, and if so you may be able to simplify the chord. It’s an unusual chord and will throw less experienced musicians. But if you decide you need it, there’s nothing wrong with it.

[Sam Spoons]

I'm asking this as much for my own benefit as I am, after 60 years playing guitar, making a proper effort to learn to read music.

What is the purpose of the chords in this score? I'm guessing it's a way of developing your theory knowledge? In the 'real world' it would presumably be for the benefit of any non-reading guitar players who might want to play it. But as you have written the guitar part out it is quite specific and any guitar player working purely from the chords is unlikely to play your voicings?

[RichardT]

I'm asking this as much for my own benefit as I am, after 60 years playing guitar, making a proper effort to learn to read music.

What is the purpose of the chords in this score? I'm guessing it's a way of developing your theory knowledge? In the 'real world' it would presumably be for the benefit of any non-reading guitar players who might want to play it. But as you have written the guitar part out it is quite specific and any guitar player working purely from the chords is unlikely to play your voicings?

You’re right Sam, if the chart was for use by other musicians it would be unusual to have a piano part, guitar part and chords all at the same time. But as a learning exercise it makes perfect sense.

[Ardrin]

Thanks for the responses, everyone.

Bsus2 is B C# F#, the chord in your score is B C D F#. Bmadd2 is B C# D F#, so the chord here is Bmaddb2, which isn't seen often.

You're right, I forgot that sus2 and sus4 don't contain a 3rd. (I have changed the guitar chord to F# B C) Also, it's probably pretty clear that I kind of forgot about accidentals and chord qualities. I appreciate the help.

For the Bm chord in bar 6, I would have a think as to whether any of the notes on piano part should be treated as passing notes, and if so you may be able to simplify the chord.

What would you consider the chord to be? I have no idea on how to identify passing notes. I came up with F#ø7 for the off beats and Bm(sus2) for the down beat (for lack of a better term), but I have no idea if it's correct.

What is the purpose of the chords in this score? I'm guessing it's a way of developing your theory knowledge?

Yes, your assumption is correct. I have no knowledge of guitar - it's just there to visualize the chords better. I'm curious though, how would you voice the chords on guitar?

[RichardT]

Passing notes are non-chord notes that lead to a chord note, usually via an interval of a semitone or a tone. Strictly, in classical theory, to be a passing note it must be between two chord notes, one above and one below, such a G between an A and an F# over a chord of D.

I used it more generally to refer to ‘passing notes, appoggiaturas, and other non-chord notes that resolve to a chord note’.

Here’s some info on appoggiaturas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appoggiatura

I’ve had a look at your piece, and I think the B in the right hand in b.6 is an appoggiatura. I think it’s leading to an A, and the harmony at that point is D7.

Likewise the E at the end of the bar is a passing note, so I’d say the harmony for the whole of bar 6 is D7.

[Sam Spoons]

Thanks for the responses, everyone.

What is the purpose of the chords in this score? I'm guessing it's a way of developing your theory knowledge?

Yes, your assumption is correct. I have no knowledge of guitar - it's just there to visualize the chords better. I'm curious though, how would you voice the chords on guitar?

Let me have a day or so to look at it, it'll be a useful exercise for me.

edit:- What style have you in mind?

[Ardrin]

I used it more generally to refer to ‘passing notes and appoggiaturas’.
I’ve had a look at your piece, and I think the B in the right hand in b.6 is an appoggiatura. I think it’s leading to an A, and the harmony at that point is D7.

Likewise the E at the end of the bar is a passing note, so I’d say the harmony for the whole of bar 6 is D7.

Thanks, thinking of passing notes as grace notes (which I'm more familiar with) actually makes a lot of sense now. I tried it with all of m6 being D7 and it also sounds good. I never would've thought that the A was what it was leading to!

Let me have a day or so to look at it, it'll be a useful exercise for me.

edit:- What style have you in mind?

Thank you, take your time. Regarding style, I just put down whatever came into my head, so feel free to take it in any direction you wish.

[Sam Spoons]

I used it more generally to refer to ‘passing notes and appoggiaturas’.
I’ve had a look at your piece, and I think the B in the right hand in b.6 is an appoggiatura. I think it’s leading to an A, and the harmony at that point is D7.

Likewise the E at the end of the bar is a passing note, so I’d say the harmony for the whole of bar 6 is D7.

Thanks, thinking of passing notes as grace notes (which I'm more familiar with) actually makes a lot of sense now. I tried it with all of m6 being D7 and it also sounds good. I never would've thought that the A was what it was leading to!

May I introduce the "one chord to rule them all" (in gypsy jazz at least ) we use a chord that played as 5x45xx is A-6 but it also serves as D7 and Adim, Cdim, Ebdim or F#dim.

Let me have a day or so to look at it, it'll be a useful exercise for me.

edit:- What style have you in mind?

Thank you, take your time. Regarding style, I just put down whatever came into my head, so feel free to take it in any direction you wish.

Let's see what pops out, there may be a bit of reharmonisation but don't be surprised if we end up with a gypsy jazz waltz

[Ardrin]

May I introduce the "one chord to rule them all" (in gypsy jazz at least ) we use a chord that played as 5x45xx is A-6 but it also serves as D7 and Adim, Cdim, Ebdim or F#dim.

Let's see what pops out, there may be a bit of reharmonisation but don't be surprised if we end up with a gypsy jazz waltz

That's quite fascinating... Thanks for the information!
A couple questions about this "one chord to rule them all,"
1. Do you mind clarifying on the 5x4 5xx and how it relates to Am6?
2. Does it have to be Am6 or can it be a different minor 6th (e.g. Dm6)?

Also, I notice that the diminished chords Am6 works with are all in the Adim7 chord (A, C, Eb, F#) - I suppose this makes sense though

[Sam Spoons]

Forgive the slightly frivolous comment, it's a bit of an 'in joke' in the gypsy jazz guitar world.

Basically the three notes that chord produces on a guitar are A, F# & C. It's an A-6 as notes are the I, IV & -III. and as it includes no open strings it's moveable (as it is an any of it's forms) so can be transposed into any key.

As a D7 it has the IV, III & VII (no root*) and as a dim chord it has three of the four notes so can function as any of the four dim chords they share.

It's common on guitar to play partial chords as although you have 6 notes available they are spread across more than two octaves and it's hard (and sometimes impossible) to play closely stacked intervals as you might on a keyboard instrument.

* You don't always need a root to define a chord, especially if you have a bass filling in the bottom end.

[Ardrin]

Apologies, I don't think I quite grasp the Am6 concept. Would A F# C not be the I (A, major 1 or root), VI (F#, major 6th), and iii (C, minor 3rd) - relative to Amin?
Additionally, in the D7, the shared notes would be III (F#, major 3rd), V (A, perfect 5th), and vii (C, minor 7th) - at least relative to Dmaj, would they not?
It's quite possible I'm just confused about the degrees, my understanding of them is regrettably fairly low, and rusty on top of that.

Also, just to clarify as we may have different ways of referring to a concept,
A-6 = A minor 6 = Am6 = A, C, E, F# (although some notes may be omitted)
-III = the minor third degree = iii (e.g. in G major, the minor third degree is Bmin, or B D F#)

[Sam Spoons]

You are right to a point but chord naming conventions are not always entirely logical, a beginner might find the fact that C7 includes a Bb not a B natural somewhat confusing. F# is the 6th note in an A major scale so I'm guessing that in a similar way that 7th and -7th chords both include the b7, major and minor 6th chords both include the 6th from the major scale?

And, after quick Google to set things straight in my mind, F# is also the 6th degree of a A jazz minor scale (i.e. the ascending form of the harmonic minor) so that may be a better explanation.

I just accept it as how it's done and that, like the b7 thing, it's one of those anomalies (that and the fact that a full Am with a nat 6 sounds 'orrible )

edit :- By -III I meant the b3rd note of the scale as in a maj triad includes I, III & IV, a minor triad has a b3rd. the iii is how I would, rightly or wrongly (merlyn?), describe the third triad based on a major scale (in C that would be Em). Another Google required to sort my mind out...

[merlyn]

A minor flat sixth is an inversion of a major seventh. To take an example -- A C E F is Amb6. Reorder that F A C E and it's Fmaj7. So major seventh is used instead of minor flat sixth.

A minor sixth has its own sound. It has a tritone in it, e.g. between C and F# in Am6.

Using a major sixth makes this chord definitely a ii chord in origin, but it is used as a tonic minor.

I would use numbers for scale degrees -- 1 2 3 4 ... and roman numerals for chords -- I ii iii IV ...

[Sam Spoons]

Thanks merlyn.

Now for ardrin, guitar chords are limited by the fact that the guitarist has 6 strings and only 4 fingers so any voicing that uses more than four notes* will need one finger to cover more than one string**. 'jazz' chords usually have 3 or 4 notes, often with the root or 5th omitted (extended chords like 9th or 13th for example have R 3 5 b7 X so at least 5 notes) so the 'flavour' notes are available. The other limitation is how far your fingers can stretch and the intervals between strings.

My chord theory, particularly as relating to guitar, is pretty good so feel free to ask specific questions WRT guitar chord voicings.

* I'm excluding open 'campfire chords' which can use one or more open strings.

** There are a couple of options aside from a full barre, little finger across 12 or 123, ring finger across 234 but most

[Ardrin]

A minor flat sixth is an inversion of a major seventh. To take an example -- A C E F is Amb6. Reorder that F A C E and it's Fmaj7. So major seventh is used instead of minor flat sixth.

Thanks, merlyn. It seems there are a lot of intricacies in chord relations that I was completely unaware of...

Using a major sixth makes this chord definitely a ii chord in origin, but it is used as a tonic minor.

Sorry, I don't think I understand what you mean. How's a major 6th a ii chord in origin? (I probably misinterpreted you) It makes sense that it's used as a tonic minor though, after all the minor tonic is a maj6 (or min3) away from the relative major.

guitar chords are limited by the fact that the guitarist has 6 strings and only 4 fingers

'jazz' chords usually have 3 or 4 notes, often with the root or 5th omitted (extended chords like 9th or 13th for example have R 3 5 b7 X so at least 5 notes) so the 'flavour' notes are available. The other limitation is how far your fingers can stretch and the intervals between strings.

My chord theory, particularly as relating to guitar, is pretty good so feel free to ask specific questions WRT guitar chord voicings.

The finger restraints on guitar chords makes a lot of sense.

A few questions (which hopefully fall within your comfort zone),
1. I suppose chord voicings are relatively important for piano as well. How do you know which note to voice? Is it based mainly on the note that you're physically capable of playing?

2. What are the smallest intervals you can do? (for example, is it plausible to play F3, G3 (maj2), and B4 for a G7 chord - even if it's not what you'd typically do?)

3. Which notes can generally be omitted from chords? I've heard you can omit the I and V from a 7th chord, and you can omit the III/iii of a triad to make a "power chord," but I don't know which notes you can omit for, say, a 6th chord or an 11th chord.

4. How would you go about "flavouring" the chords? How would you know which notes work "well" with the base chord?

[Sam Spoons]

1, I’m not a keyboard player but similar limits apply, max stretch on keys is probably about a 10th if you have large hands but there are limits to where you can put your other three fingers.

2, Yes, just but it spans 5 frets so is very difficult to play (for me at least) when, for example, 3x34xx (G F B - 1 b7 3) does the same job*.

3, It depends on context but assuming no bass or rhythm guitar you can leave out the root and/or 5th of a Dom 7th type chord and still have the chord imply them. Power chords aren’t really chords without a 3rd but an entity in their own right (in the rock music world).

4, Extended chords like 9th, 11th and 13th are made of stacked 3rds, chords can be altered by flattening or sharpening one or more of the notes (e.g. m7b5 or sus 2, sus 4) or adding a ‘non-chord’ tone (add2). Almost anything goes, use your ears.**

I get the impression that you wrote that piece on paper rather than on an instrument? I realise that is how the classical composers did it but as a non reader I can’t do that so I compose on guitar, I can translate the ideas in my head onto the instrument and play/record them but writing them down is a laborious process that I have only recently started to learn how to do.

* You might play it as an arpeggio or as part of a ‘chord melody’ but most times I’d just find an easier way.

** This thread might prove useful https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=539

[merlyn]

Using a major sixth makes this chord definitely a ii chord in origin, but it is used as a tonic minor.

Sorry, I don't think I understand what you mean. How's a major 6th a ii chord in origin? (I probably misinterpreted you) It makes sense that it's used as a tonic minor though, after all the minor tonic is a maj6 (or min3) away from the relative major.

I mean a major sixth interval. If we use numbers, the formula of a minor sixth (m6) is

1 b3 5 6

That is root, minor third, fifth, major sixth.

A minor flat sixth (mb6) is

1 b3 5 b6

Those are all notes in the natural minor scale 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7. In the minor sixth chord, the major sixth interval could be from the dorian mode, which is the mode starting on 2. It's easier dealing with actual notes, rather than generalisations. Let's take G major, the key your piece is in, which is also E natural minor.

G A B C D E F# G -- major scale starting on 1

A B C D E F# G A -- major scale starting on 2

If we were to put a sixth into an Am chord in the key of G, then it's F#. Generalising that, if we were to put a sixth into a ii chord, it's a major sixth.

[tea for two]

One thing I wouldn't mind finding ooot
when you improvise by yourself are you thinking this is this and that chord and or is it muscle memory visual memory hearing memory first foremost.

I will freely admit my theory is utter pants. I get frazzled by theory : even though aged 12-14 I had Classical lessons in Piano Violin, used to enjoy writing scores at that age.
When I noodle, nearly all my stuff is based upon noodles, I'm going on muscle memory visual memory hearing memory.
I'm not thinking of chords nor notes : if I did I'd have to look up what I was doing lol.
My stuff isn't complex so that helps me.