Monitor speakers as HiFi use?

[forumuser773232]

Hi,
Just purchased a turn table and have a pair of Alesis M1 Active speakers as a pair of monitor speakers in my studio. I want to add the turntable to my studio set to listen to vinyl records. I have plugged the RCA output of the turntable into a Mackie mixing desk which my Alesis speakers are plugged into as well. So I control the volume and panning etc through the desk. My question is, will using my monitor speakers as listening to vinyl records damage the speakers as I'll still be using them for my studio work?

[ef37a]

Hi,
Just purchased a turn table and have a pair of Alesis M1 Active speakers as a pair of monitor speakers in my studio. I want to add the turntable to my studio set to listen to vinyl records. I have plugged the RCA output of the turntable into a Mackie mixing desk which my Alesis speakers are plugged into as well. So I control the volume and panning etc through the desk. My question is, will using my monitor speakers as listening to vinyl records damage the speakers as I'll still be using them for my studio work?

Not likely, a distorted guitar or a bass is far more likely to damage a speaker than vinyl playback but questions?
Does the turntable contain the RIAA correction pre amplifiers? Or does that particular Mackie mixer have dedicated corrected "phono" inputs? If not the setup is going to sound horrible!

Dave.

[Arpangel]

Dave's right, you’ll need something like this, if you’re going into a standard mixer line input.

https://www.project-audio.com/en/product/phono-box/

[MarkOne]

Both Dave and Tony are right, a standard turntable requires an EQ preamp (RIAA) to null out the cutting EQ profile. Also the pre-RIAA output from the cartridge is very low (a few mV)

Several turntables now build this in to provide a flat line level output. But the vast majority expect the amplifier to do this.

As far as damage... Vinyl can't achieve anything like the dynamic range, the average DAW/Audio interface is capable of. There's nothing a record can really throw at a speaker that could damage it.

People have been playing records through speakers for longer than I've been alive (and I'm at retirement age!!) And although the studio monitor manufacturers would wish you to believe otherwise, a speaker is a speaker (Whether the amp is internal or external). There is no magic that makes it a studio monitor. Not really!

[Arpangel]

As far as damage... Vinyl can't achieve anything like the dynamic range, the average DAW/Audio interface is capable of. There's nothing a record can really throw at a speaker that could damage it.

Ha!
A friend lent me a 12 inch pressing of an EDM track he made, there was enough bass on it to take out one of the bass drivers in my KLH Model 5’s, my turntable was a Thorens TD150, vinyl can go down pretty low, especially on a 45rpm 12 inch, keep the volume down!

[MarkOne]

As far as damage... Vinyl can't achieve anything like the dynamic range, the average DAW/Audio interface is capable of. There's nothing a record can really throw at a speaker that could damage it.

Ha!
A friend lent me a 12 inch pressing of an EDM track he made, there was enough bass on it to take out one of the bass drivers in my KLH Model 5’s, my turntable was a Thorens TD150, vinyl can go down pretty low, especially on a 45rpm 12 inch, keep the volume down!

Why would this be different to playing the CD, or streaming the track? I'm sure the damage you caused was far more likely to be clipping the amp, not the playback medium.

[ef37a]

No not "magic" MarkOne but it is infinitely easier to protect a driver when you know exactly which one you are connecting to your amplifier!

Even if a "monitor" (in the very widest and looses sense here) does not have sophisticated analogue or more likely now, digital speaker protection the fact that the amp and driver are integrated means power level limits and say, LF limits can be built in. There is also the huge benefit of 'bi-amplification' where the bass and tweeter have their own amplifier which uses low level crossover circuits, sparing the amps from a very awkward load in some cases.

I don't know if it has been done but thermal sensors could be built into speakers to 'inform' the electronics of impending doom? Could be done I think by some clever means of measuring voice coil resistance?

Having seen the destruction a bass guitar can wreak on a woofer or what 'Hendrix' guitar signals can do to a hi fi tweeter I am continually surprised at the almost total lack of posts about busted speakers!

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

My question is, will using my monitor speakers as listening to vinyl records damage the speakers as I'll still be using them for my studio work?

No of course not — assuming you don't overdrive them or listen at party levels. Lots of people listen to vinyl through monitor speakers... not least, mastering engineers... and me!

[Hugh Robjohns]

A friend lent me a 12 inch pressing of an EDM track he made, there was enough bass on it to take out one of the bass drivers in my KLH Model 5’s...

That was most likely to have been due to an LF howlround problem that went unnoticed. "Wow, listen to that freaky bass, man!"

...vinyl can go down pretty low, especially on a 45rpm 12 inch, keep the volume down!

Not really. CD and streaming can both go much lower.

The current RIAA spec includes a high-pass filter at 20Hz. Anything below that (and sometimes above if the cartridge isn't a good match!) will impinge on the natural resonances of the tone arm, often with catastrophic results!

[ef37a]

"Why would this be different to playing the CD," ...Indeed, not a lot. A digital recording contains virtually all the frequencies of the original and at their original levels so playing a recording of say bass guitar* into a hi fi speaker is little different from plugging it in live! Was there not an infamous CD of the 1812 where the cannons launched people's cones?

But, HOW speakers fail is complex and there are at least two mechanisms. Over displacement where the voice coil is actually ripped from the spider and surround. Thermal where the VC heats up to the point where it chars, expands and jams the magnet gap, ultimately going open circuit (valve amps LOVE that!)

Of course, excess heat does not help keep VCs glued in!

*I used that as an example because that was my main weapon yonks ago!

Dave.

[Arpangel]

That was most likely to have been due to an LF howlround problem that went unnoticed.

Yes, you’re probably right, I’ve been suffering from bad feedback on that Project Carbon Evo I bought, turntable is well out the way, but Im still getting it badly at high volumes.
I’ve not had this issue before, it’s quite worrying, I’m going to borrow a couple of other decks, to see if it changes.
Sprung decks I’ve had in the past have been fine, even though they weren’t optimally sited.

[ef37a]

That was most likely to have been due to an LF howlround problem that went unnoticed.

Yes, you’re probably right, I’ve been suffering from bad feedback on that Project Carbon Evo I bought, turntable is well out the way, but Im still getting it badly at high volumes.
I’ve not had this issue before, it’s quite worrying, I’m going to borrow a couple of other decks, to see if it changes.
Sprung decks I’ve had in the past have been fine, even though they weren’t optimally sited.

You could always digitally and silently record your discs!

Dave.

[MOF]

You could always digitally and silently record your discs!

Or listen on headphones only while transferring.

[Arpangel]

That was most likely to have been due to an LF howlround problem that went unnoticed.

Yes, you’re probably right, I’ve been suffering from bad feedback on that Project Carbon Evo I bought, turntable is well out the way, but Im still getting it badly at high volumes.
I’ve not had this issue before, it’s quite worrying, I’m going to borrow a couple of other decks, to see if it changes.
Sprung decks I’ve had in the past have been fine, even though they weren’t optimally sited.

You could always digitally and silently record your discs!

Dave.

I haven’t put any of my records on to digital.
I think the last time I listened to a record was about 3 months ago, probably longer for a CD.
I listen "casually" and randomly to YouTube, through my iPad speakers, thats about how much importance I attach to listening to music these days.

[MarkOne]

No not "magic" MarkOne but it is infinitely easier to protect a driver when you know exactly which one you are connecting to your amplifier!

Even if a "monitor" (in the very widest and looses sense here) does not have sophisticated analogue or more likely now, digital speaker protection the fact that the amp and driver are integrated means power level limits and say, LF limits can be built in. There is also the huge benefit of 'bi-amplification' where the bass and tweeter have their own amplifier which uses low level crossover circuits, sparing the amps from a very awkward load in some cases.

I don't know if it has been done but thermal sensors could be built into speakers to 'inform' the electronics of impending doom? Could be done I think by some clever means of measuring voice coil resistance?

Having seen the destruction a bass guitar can wreak on a woofer or what 'Hendrix' guitar signals can do to a hi fi tweeter I am continually surprised at the almost total lack of posts about busted speakers!

Dave.

Dave, I still stand by my comments.

Firstly there were generations of speakers used in studios that weren't active, or indeed specifically 'studio' models, and were in fact just well regarded Hi-Fi speakers from the likes of Tannoy, and JBL (to name a couple), and even purpose built soffit mounted studio mains were driven by separate amplification, often sold also to people in the Hi-Fi world and utilising passive crossovers.

Moreover, active speaker systems have been around since at least the 70s in the Hi-Fi world. I was responsible for part of the design of the active crossover systems our company built in cooperation with a number of well known UK hifi brands (we even helped set up the short lived "Active Loudspeaker Speaker Organisation" Along with companies like Linn, Naim and Meridian. to attempt to standardise active electronics and make separate active electronics interoperable) And I remember demonstrating our full tri-amped active system with a pair of Linn Isobarik speakers at a Hi-Fi show in '78

My existing speakers in my Hi-Fi setup are Kef LS50s which are pretty much exclusively sold as domestic Hi-Fi but are fully active, with digital inputs, a DSP crossover, and a performance that matches or exceeds many 'studio' monitors.

So, like I said there really isn't anything particularly special about studio monitors, and the likes of ATC, PMC etc, are happy to provide high end systems to both the domestic and professional market.

[Arpangel]

We had 15” Tannoys in the studio I used to use, built into brick corner enclosures, they were driven by home-made power amps.
These JBL's I've got here right now were often used for monitoring.
TBH, I really don’t care, active or passive.

[ef37a]

So, like I said there really isn't anything particularly special about studio monitors, and the likes of ATC, PMC etc, are happy to provide high end systems to both the domestic and professional market.

I think we are not quite on the same page here Mark?
I do not dispute that a monitor speaker is any different from a hi fi speaker of comparable quality from a performance point of view. I just maintain that it is easier to protect the drive unit when it is connected to a known power amplifier and, in most cases with sophisticated protection. Indeed, such a combination allows the drive unit to be worked closer to its limits. A passive speaker might for example be rated to "100 watts programme, 50watts continuous" The same drive unit in an active box might be quite safely used with a 200W amp with the right protection. And, as I said before, simple single speaker loads are kinder to amplifiers.

Then, 'back in the day' with Arp's 15" Tannoys people were using valve amplifiers and a 100W hi fi valve amp was a very rare beast indeed! Ten a penny now with SMPUs and class D. But then you only needed about 25 watts per speaker because they were huge and had a high sensitivity. My (now closed) ABC cinema had a speaker rig on a trolley. 4 15" Vitavox horn loaded woofers and a multicell mid and tweeter. That lot, about 12' high behind the screen was driven from a 20W Pamphonic valve amp in the projection box. That was plenty loud enough!

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

So, like I said there really isn't anything particularly special about studio monitors...

I think that needs qualifying, specifically with what you mean by 'studio monitor'. There are myriad 'studio monitors' at the budget end of the market that really are nothing of the sort....

In days of yore, of course, studio monitors had a much more linear frequency response than hi-fi speakers, usually a greater LF bandwidth, far greater headroom, and much better power linearity (ie, less thermal compression).

Modern DSP and active crossovers have certainly leveled the frequency response playing field somewhat, but truely professional studio monitors from the likes of ATC, PMC, Genelec, Neumann etc generally still are far more robust with better protection systems, allowing them to handle Dave's bass solos without going phut.

But the real and key difference for me is that true studio monitors have massively better consistency and tighter tolerances between all models from the production line, not just for selected stereo pairs.

In a professional environment it is often important that speakers can be selected at random for use in mixed arrays and still deliver optimum performance. That requires a level of production control nd tight tolerances that few hi-fi manufacturers can — or need to — sustain. (Although, again, DSP models allow much tighter tolerance production for very little cost today).

[Sam Spoons]

My (now closed) ABC cinema had a speaker rig on a trolley. 4 15" Vitavox horn loaded woofers and a multicell mid and tweeter. That lot, about 12' high behind the screen was driven from a 20W Pamphonic valve amp in the projection box. That was plenty loud enough!

Dave.

When I was a teenager my parents were keen on am-dram and operatics. The musical they did each year was staged at our local cinema and I worked on stage crew. Our first job was to hoist up the 8 foot high mono speaker behind the screen and lower it through a trap to beneath the stage. IIRC that was a folded horn bass cab with a large mid/high horn at the top and was driven by a small valve amp (possibly a Linear Conchord 30 watt). Happy days...

[Lostgallifreyan]

Several people mentioned that an LP record won't have enough dynamic range to damage a monitor speaker, so there no reason not to do it. CD's will also be fine. Watch for clipping and don't listen at excessive levels.

What I didn't see is a mention of why it is a very good idea to do it. Listening to familiar commercial recordings is important if you want to trust the monitors with a new mix.

Just get them into a fixed location where they (and the room) sound good, get that settled, because if you change something like that, you might as well have changed everything and it will take time to get used to the change, and familiar recordings will be the fastest way to do that, just as they were the first time.

[Drew Stephenson]

If only a reputable sound technology magazine had written a couple of articles on the differences between hi-fi speakers and studio monitors...
https://www.soundonsound.com/series/mon ... i-speakers

[Hugh Robjohns]

[MarkOne]

But the real and key difference for me is that true studio monitors have massively better consistency and tighter tolerances between all models from the production line, not just for selected stereo pairs.

I think again it's more down to the manufacturer you're talking about. I really don't think companies like ATC, PMC, and Focal who are well regarded in both worlds, are going to have a line that churns out substandard product for their domestic customers.

And having spent some of my life in the world of Hi-Fi manufacture, I can attest to the fact that much time and money is spent on quality control and product consistency.

[ef37a]

Err? Sod it! Can't resist..."consistent" IF they have been 'blown' for 50 hours!

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]