Contrasting/Masking Sounds in a Production

[PippaPumpkin]

Hello,

I have heard that it is best to produce a song in a way, that little to nothing has to be done in the mix. That it is an art to layer sounds in a way that they compliment eachother.

When recording a song by overdubbing, I guess it would make sense to start with the drums, continue with the bass and then add the other elements on top. To achieve a sum of recordings that work well together, they should of course contrast eachother to some extent. As I understand it, to make the song coherent, there needs to be some amount of masking between those tracks as well.

I can see mastering this is a result of alot of experience. Since I have little to no experience I'd like to know what to look for when layering sounds in a production.

[BWC]

...I'd like to know what to look for when layering sounds in a production.

You mean, listen for, right? And that's what I think you need, lots of listening time, while thinking about what compliments and what detracts, and why.

[Arpangel]

Don’t think of drums bass etc in any particular order, or anything for that matter.
I'm working on a track that has about 18 tracks, I just sit there and push up faders, willy nilly, just to see how it sounds, as a cohesive whole, I never listen to things in isolation that have to work with other sounds.

[Drew Stephenson]

I can see mastering this is a result of alot of experience. Since I have little to no experience I'd like to know what to look for when layering sounds in a production.

Speaking as another (very) amateur, I'd say start with your sense of purpose.
What are you trying to say with this piece of music? What is the message?

Then think about the core components that will deliver that message - does it need layers at all or could it be a single instrument or voice?

If multiple instruments or layers are required, what is each bit contributing? What do they add and, crucially, can something else be removed when this piece is added in? The easiest way to deal with masking is by making the arrangement such that it doesn't happen in the first place.

Once you have the core of piece established, then you can look at adding embellishments, supporting lines, ear-candy, dynamics etc. and again, for each thing you add, ask yourself a) is this really adding to the piece or is it just a nice thing? and b) can something else now can be removed?

But all of it has to be in service of the music and the message.

[adrian_k]

To the OP, I think you are looking for something you can’t get on a forum. There will be an interesting discussion and people will give their own views, which may differ, and you might get some things to try. But at the end of the day you will find your own way of doing things that suits you, the genre you are working in, what you are trying to communicate.

In the last month I’ve produced a couple of tracks - one where drums, synth riff and bass were the first three ‘layers’, in that order, then vocals and pads. The other started with piano and vocals, then percussion, bass, guitar and BVs. It all depends where the ‘feel’ of the song is coming from and how you want to put that across.

There is no right way to do this, you just need to start doing it, hit some specific problems and find solutions, move on.

[RichardT]

My philosophy is mostly to use as few instruments as possible. I find that maximises the impact and clarity of the performance.

So if you’re struggling with how to layer multiple instruments, you could think first about whether things would be better with less going on.

[Lostgallifreyan]

My philosophy is mostly to use as few instruments as possible. I find that maximises the impact and clarity of the performance.

So if you’re struggling with how to layer multiple instruments, you could think first about whether things would be better with less going on.

I agree with this. Yesterday I heard a bit of Radio 3, a string trio by Schubert, and after it, the announcer said it was possibly the best thing he'd ever written. Given that Schubert was very prolific and probably never wrote a dud, it's high praise, and it is amazing music. Adding more to it wouldn't have been needed.

I used to think I'd make multilayered stuff like Tangerine Dream (it is awesome) but I couldn't do it. Their best moments boil down to the interaction between a very few specific sounds. Anything else is just ornamentation, because doing that extra all the time would be unbearable clutter..

Most bands are small, with good reason. (Not that I have anything against a good big band arrangement).

[RichardT]

I can see mastering this is a result of alot of experience. Since I have little to no experience I'd like to know what to look for when layering sounds in a production.

Speaking as another (very) amateur, I'd say start with your sense of purpose.
What are you trying to say with this piece of music? What is the message?

Then think about the core components that will deliver that message - does it need layers at all or could it be a single instrument or voice?

If multiple instruments or layers are required, what is each bit contributing? What do they add and, crucially, can something else be removed when this piece is added in? The easiest way to deal with masking is by making the arrangement such that it doesn't happen in the first place.

Once you have the core of piece established, then you can look at adding embellishments, supporting lines, ear-candy, dynamics etc. and again, for each thing you add, ask yourself a) is this really adding to the piece or is it just a nice thing? and b) can something else now can be removed?

But all of it has to be in service of the music and the message.

Very nice post, Drew. People do underestimate the value of removing things, as opposed to adding them.

[The Elf]

Use enough of everything to carry the song. And no more.

This happens a lot...

"Keep it, but turn it down in the mix". Once I hear that phrase I turn it down, then I later sneakily mute the part in question. 80% of the time it never gets mentioned again.

[Drew Stephenson]

"Keep it, but turn it down in the mix". Once I hear that phrase I turn it down, then I later sneakily mute the part in question. 80% of the time it never gets mentioned again.

Yep, I find that I have to over-build things first (I'm not smart enough to work out what's needed straight away) and then cut back. And I have to try and be as ruthless as possible with myself. It may be a lovely riff / lick / fill / whatever, but is it necessary? Mute it and see if the song actually suffers. Most of the time it won't.
In a typical song I'll probably record at least twice as much stuff as ends up in the final cut. More on a more complex production, maybe a bit less on the simplest stuff.

[PippaPumpkin]

You mean, listen for, right?

Yes that is what I was going for.

Don’t think of drums bass etc in any particular order, or anything for that matter.
I'm working on a track that has about 18 tracks, I just sit there and push up faders, willy nilly, just to see how it sounds, as a cohesive whole, I never listen to things in isolation that have to work with other sounds.

Okay, but if you record by overdubbing you have to start somewhere, right?

If multiple instruments or layers are required, what is each bit contributing? What do they add and, crucially, can something else be removed when this piece is added in? The easiest way to deal with masking is by making the arrangement such that it doesn't happen in the first place.

That is difficult to me, I look at it as a whole and don't have any perspective on single parts.

Once you have the core of piece established, then you can look at adding embellishments, supporting lines, ear-candy, dynamics etc. and again, for each thing you add, ask yourself a) is this really adding to the piece or is it just a nice thing? and b) can something else now can be removed?

But all of it has to be in service of the music and the message.

Would you say, that if something is nice but doesn't necessarly add much to the whole it is better to remove it?

What I originally was asking myself was, how do I decide on sounds for all the elements to make them work in the production in order to avoid processing when mixing.

In the last month I’ve produced a couple of tracks - one where drums, synth riff and bass were the first three ‘layers’, in that order, then vocals and pads. The other started with piano and vocals, then percussion, bass, guitar and BVs. It all depends where the ‘feel’ of the song is coming from and how you want to put that across.

There is no right way to do this, you just need to start doing it, hit some specific problems and find solutions, move on.

Is it a good idea to choose sounds by intuition and hope for the best, and analyse what could have been better in retrospective?

My philosophy is mostly to use as few instruments as possible. I find that maximises the impact and clarity of the performance.

So if you’re struggling with how to layer multiple instruments, you could think first about whether things would be better with less going on.

I like this approach. This can save alot of work. On the other hand it might be quite revealing in a bad way or sounds thin?

I agree with this. Yesterday I heard a bit of Radio 3, a string trio by Schubert, and after it, the announcer said it was possibly the best thing he'd ever written. Given that Schubert was very prolific and probably never wrote a dud, it's high praise, and it is amazing music. Adding more to it wouldn't have been needed.

I used to think I'd make multilayered stuff like Tangerine Dream (it is awesome) but I couldn't do it. Their best moments boil down to the interaction between a very few specific sounds. Anything else is just ornamentation, because doing that extra all the time would be unbearable clutter..

Most bands are small, with good reason. (Not that I have anything against a good big band arrangement).

Okay, it is important to focus on a solid foundation.

Use enough of everything to carry the song. And no more.

This happens a lot...

"Keep it, but turn it down in the mix". Once I hear that phrase I turn it down, then I later sneakily mute the part in question. 80% of the time it never gets mentioned again.

Sometimes it is tough to remove parts when you have invested alot of work creating them, but it makes sense to me. What is left really has to be good though.

[BWC]

...I look at it as a whole and don't have any perspective on single parts.

That's why I say you need lots of listening time (to songs you like ), while thinking about the single parts and how they fit together.

[amanise]

...I look at it as a whole and don't have any perspective on single parts.

That's why I say you need lots of listening time (to songs you like ), while thinking about the single parts and how they fit together.

Songs you like is probably the best place to get started - but the real test of professional abilities comes with being just as capable to perform and produce music that isn't to your taste to the same standards. IMHO.

[BWC]

- but the real test of professional abilities comes with being just as capable to perform and produce music that isn't to your taste to the same standards. IMHO.

I get your point, but I can usually tell when "hearts aren't in it", no matter how "polished & professional".

[Arpangel]

you have to start somewhere, right?

No, you don’t, you can start anywhere.

[The Elf]

Sometimes it is tough to remove parts when you have invested alot of work creating them, but it makes sense to me. What is left really has to be good though.

What you need is time and distance from that moment - then that mute button is a lot easier to press.

[Arpangel]

During the process of making my current "album" I’ve deleted many completely finished tracks, sometimes you just have to do it, it's not a big deal.

[James Perrett]

Sometimes it is tough to remove parts when you have invested alot of work creating them, but it makes sense to me. What is left really has to be good though.

Sometimes you find that those great parts are actually meant for another song.

Sometimes you just need one part and nothing else will work. Last week I recorded a vocalist with a view to turning the vocal line into part of a complete song. But that vocal performance was so complete in itself that anything added just takes away from the power of the words.

[Drew Stephenson]

Once you have the core of piece established, then you can look at adding embellishments, supporting lines, ear-candy, dynamics etc. and again, for each thing you add, ask yourself a) is this really adding to the piece or is it just a nice thing? and b) can something else now can be removed?

But all of it has to be in service of the music and the message.

Would you say, that if something is nice but doesn't necessarly add much to the whole it is better to remove it?

Yep, as James and the Elf have sort-of said, nice isn't enough. Be ruthless.

What I originally was asking myself was, how do I decide on sounds for all the elements to make them work in the production in order to avoid processing when mixing.

I'm not entirely sure I'm following the question here, but if I am understanding you correctly, I think it's a case of alternating between an analytical and a creative approach.
So you might listen back to your initial track. Say it has vocals, drums, bass and keyboards. You might think, verse one can be carried by the vocal and keyboard, it doesn't need anything else. We'll bring the bass and drums in on the chorus, and then maybe drop the drums out on verse two. At this point you might use your analytical brain and think 'verse two is now sounding a bit bass heavy, in order to balance that out a bit I need something with some high frequency components'. So maybe you then put your creative hat on and try some 12-string acoustic guitar, or a high synth part.

Or you ignore all that and just layer half a dozen different parts on and then go through and cut bits out. But that's where you have to be ruthless.

[PippaPumpkin]

That's why I say you need lots of listening time (to songs you like ), while thinking about the single parts and how they fit together.

Makes sense.

No, you don’t, you can start anywhere.

You mean I can add the rhythm section last?

What you need is time and distance from that moment - then that mute button is a lot easier to press.

That is true.

Sometimes you just need one part and nothing else will work. Last week I recorded a vocalist with a view to turning the vocal line into part of a complete song. But that vocal performance was so complete in itself that anything added just takes away from the power of the words.

That must have been an awesome performance.

Yep, as James and the Elf have sort-of said, nice isn't enough. Be ruthless.

That's tough.

I'm not entirely sure I'm following the question here, but if I am understanding you correctly, I think it's a case of alternating between an analytical and a creative approach.
So you might listen back to your initial track. Say it has vocals, drums, bass and keyboards. You might think, verse one can be carried by the vocal and keyboard, it doesn't need anything else. We'll bring the bass and drums in on the chorus, and then maybe drop the drums out on verse two. At this point you might use your analytical brain and think 'verse two is now sounding a bit bass heavy, in order to balance that out a bit I need something with some high frequency components'. So maybe you then put your creative hat on and try some 12-string acoustic guitar, or a high synth part.

Or you ignore all that and just layer half a dozen different parts on and then go through and cut bits out. But that's where you have to be ruthless.

I never have looked at it this way. It is quite amazing to me to considering cutting things down to the bare bones elements.

To be clear, what I originally was thinking of, is how to decide one tones. Like when I have drums, how to dial in the bass tone. Then how to dial in the guitar tone, how to my the vocals etc. to get layers that fit well together. I wasn't thinking at all about compositional decisions, although it makes sense to look at this way as well, or even first and foremost.

Thanks for all the great advise.

[tea for two]

There was a thread on ere foruume a few months earlier, just Piano and Vocals. I felt it was just fine as it was, perhaps just adjusting the levels a bit.
Weeeell there was advise to add this and that which the OP did which just messed it up imo.
The upshot is we are far better at giving advise than following our own advise.

[Arpangel]

No, you don’t, you can start anywhere.

You mean I can add the rhythm section last?

Yes, sometimes crazy ideas can actually work, experimentation, is the key.

[Drew Stephenson]

To be clear, what I originally was thinking of, is how to decide one tones. Like when I have drums, how to dial in the bass tone. Then how to dial in the guitar tone, how to my the vocals etc. to get layers that fit well together.

I think this comes down to your vision for the track. What's the overall 'sonic signature' you're aiming for? Is it bright and brash? Dark and moody? Classic rock? Synth pop?
Sometimes I know this when I start a track and I'll have a clear plan in place to get the basics down. I'll maybe know that I want some pounding toms and a driving bassline and everything else is supporting that.
Other times I won't know how I want it to go until I've experimented with a few things and a vibe has started emerging.

I think one of the real skills of a producer might be being able to get to that vision, with the artist, quickly and efficiently.

[amanise]

Quite often the vision changes along the way as you experiment. It's then a question of how far you want that to go - would it be worth rewriting some of the lyrics to make it a bit darker - or lighter - whatever. And so on. Anything's possible while you're working on your own.

[PippaPumpkin]

I think this comes down to your vision for the track. What's the overall 'sonic signature' you're aiming for? Is it bright and brash? Dark and moody? Classic rock? Synth pop?
Sometimes I know this when I start a track and I'll have a clear plan in place to get the basics down. I'll maybe know that I want some pounding toms and a driving bassline and everything else is supporting that.
Other times I won't know how I want it to go until I've experimented with a few things and a vibe has started emerging.

I think one of the real skills of a producer might be being able to get to that vision, with the artist, quickly and efficiently.

How do you know what it should sound like beforehand? I am happy whan it sounds like a sound production at all.