Keys behaviour

[Folderol]

I'm wondering what people would consider the 'perfect' key action for a synth, regardless of whether it actually exists.
For me it would be a light but consistent resistance, then at the end of that travel it would become suddenly quite a bit stiffer. This would be the start of the aftertouch region. The key would still have quite a bit more travel but with consistently stiffer behaviour.

So far, I've not found anything like that

[Eddy Deegan]

I'm wondering what people would consider the 'perfect' key action for a synth, regardless of whether it actually exists.
For me it would be a light but consistent resistance, then at the end of that travel it would become suddenly quite a bit stiffer. This would be the start of the aftertouch region. The key would still have quite a bit more travel but with consistently stiffer behaviour.

I'd struggle with that to the point it would put me off buying a device! My ideal synth action would involve being able able to engage aftertouch as part of the initial key-strike as opposed to having to transition from velocity to aftertouch in a noticeably separate action. Additionally, having an aftertouch response that's controllable after the fact.

Adjusting to most keyboard actions isn't that problematic for me as long as they have a reasonably decent velocity curve but I know what I like and the keybed from the current Fantom 8 with the aftertouch of a Hydrasynth Deluxe would be more than welcome here

[Lostgallifreyan]

The best I've ever known is the Yamaha SY99 keyboard. It has good response in its aftertouch but it's easy to avoid audibly triggering it even though it starts with light pressures. The key contacts are a metal self-cleaning switch and not a rubber covered conductive pad. The action is light but slightly weighted so it's good for a wide range of uses. It's lighter than any piano action but I never liked a piano action on a synth. I like the tactile feedback I get from the SY99 keyboard, it helps adjust to get good timing when the attack might otherwise get confusing especially on a spongy action. Spongy keys feel like like misjudging the height of a step, but there's no danger of that with the way the SY99 keys feel, or in false-triggering the aftertouch. They also react well to rapid retriggering, something normally found only in a good piano action. I tried an Alto Live but despite being semi-weighted it was horrible.

If I could get the SY99's action as a separate controller keyboard, I would. The SY77 action is good, but the SY99 beats it.

I have no ideal, I just remembered what I liked best and use that to judge others by.

[Arpangel]

The best I've ever known is the Yamaha SY99 keyboard. It has good response in its aftertouch but it's easy to avoid audibly triggering it even though it starts with light pressures. The key contacts are a metal self-cleaning switch and not a rubber covered conductive pad. The action is light but slightly weighted so it's good for a wide range of uses. It's lighter than any piano action but I never liked a piano action on a synth. I like the tactile feedback I get from the SY99 keyboard, it helps adjust to get good timing when the attack might otherwise get confusing especially on a spongy action. Spongy keys feel like like misjudging the height of a step, but there's no danger of that with the way the SY99 keys feel, or in false-triggering the aftertouch. They also react well to rapid retriggering, something normally found only in a good piano action. I tried an Alto Live but despite being semi-weighted it was horrible.

If I could get the SY99's action as a separate controller keyboard, I would. The SY77 action is good, but the SY99 beats it.

I have no ideal, I just remembered what I liked best and use that to judge others by.

Completely agree, Yamaha keys have always been the best IMO, my DX7 the pinnacle.
Loads of people used to use DX7’s as master keyboards.
But my current definition of a good keyboard, is anything I’m working with!

[Lostgallifreyan]

Completely agree, Yamaha keys have always bern the best IMO, my DX7 the pinnacle.
Loads of people used to use DX7’s as master keyboards.
But my current definition of a good keyboard, is anything I’m working with!

I liked the DX7 and DX5 keyboards too. I think the SY77 is the same as those. If you've not used SY99, think of those, but with a slight weighting, and a better aftertouch response. It's definitely possible to do what Eddy said too, by following through the strike, it's easy to get aftertouch working like part of the initial impact.

I wonder if Yamaha sell spare keyboards as parts.. It might be worth the hassle of building a box to use those boards with other electronics.

[Arpangel]

Completely agree, Yamaha keys have always bern the best IMO, my DX7 the pinnacle.
Loads of people used to use DX7’s as master keyboards.
But my current definition of a good keyboard, is anything I’m working with!

I liked the DX7 and DX5 keyboards too. I think the SY77 is the same as those. If you've not used SY99, think of those, but with a slight weighting, and a better aftertouch response. It's definitely possible to do what Eddy said too, by following through the strike, it's easy to get aftertouch working like part of the initial impact.

I wonder if Yamaha sell spare keyboards as parts.. It might be worth the hassle of building a box to use those boards with other electronics.

A friend had an SY77, I played that and thought it was fabulous.
I almost bought an SY99, but there was something wrong with it when I went to look at it, I lost enthusiasm after that.

[Lostgallifreyan]

A friend had an SY77, I played that and thought it was fabulous.
I almost bought an SY99, but there was something wrong with it when I went to look at it, I lost enthusiasm after that.

Well worth getting an SY77! Nice wheels on it too. Better value than a TG77 most times I checked in the last 15+ years, too. The biggest problem with SY99 is rarity. Maybe some of the top end sample-based synths could be a cheap way to get at those keyboards too. The SY85 would be good value, and possibly SY55. Not SY35 though, definitely not as good as the old DX keyboard. I don't know if any of Yamaha's sample-based instruments had a board as good as that of the SY99, but I always hoped that at least one did. I never found a cheap way to get a backup.

[The Elf]

The Hydrasynth key action is my current favourite. I'd like a little more travel into aftertouch as it bottoms out, but the aftertouch sensitivity of the keyboard is sublime, so not a problem in practice.

Close second is Elektron's Analog (sic) Keys. That does have a bit of aftertouch travel, but it's a tad 'creaky'.

The Korg Kronos (61-key) was a particular favourite of mine, but I loathed so much about that sanity-sapping synth that not even its gorgeous keyboard could keep it here.

[Eddy Deegan]

As an afterthought, the action on the Nord Stage 4 88-note is really nice. It's neither light nor weighted but a very playable compromise between the two, working well for acoustic piano, synth lead and everything in between.

[tea for two]

Of the MiDi kb controllers I've had, E-mu XBoard was my fave, has channel AT. The one I had it's key action was trifle noisy though.

[Lostgallifreyan]

I can stand a bit of mechanical noise but there are limits. I have a near-decrepit Studiologic 88-note weighted board that clacks like a birdscarer at times. I fixed broken contacts on it when I bought it used (cheap) but I never found a practical way to silence the action.

During a moment of food coma earlier I looked for newer precedents for 76-note semiweighted Yamaha actions, and there may be one in the MODX7. (And that substring is a hell of a coincidence, if that is what it is...). If it is, then great, it's LONG overdue, and if its action is like that of the SY99, and if such an action were made in a master keyboard so we're not having to buy sounds on board with it, that would be great too. Yamaha, do you read, over...

As an afterthought, the action on the Nord Stage 4 88-note is really nice. It's neither light nor weighted but a very playable compromise between the two, working well for acoustic piano, synth lead and everything in between.

I've heard good things about the actions in Nord keyboards, but was never sure if they used Fatar actions. If they do, that might mean a semiweighted type that might be fitted in other instruments. I read a couple of pages that suggest they're used in some electronic pianos, but I doubt those have much use for aftertouch. They might be a way to find a bargain but I'd want to find upwards of 50 in one room to make finding one fast and easy. I'm not thinking of graded actions, but the idea is interesting, some of them are cheap too, but that suggests plenty of people didn't like them.

[Arpangel]

Of the MiDi kb controllers I've had, E-mu XBoard was my fave, has channel AT. The one I had it's key action was trifle noisy though.

This man is not mistaken, the X Board was a great keyboard, I had one for years, and miss it, nothing has felt as good as that since.

[MarkOne]

So what do we think happened since the 80s?

I too have fond recollection of the DX7 key 'feel'. I also had a lot of love for the Roland D50, even my Casio VX1 had a really great synth action.

Comparing to typical modern 61 note keybeds (particularly those in MIDI controllers!) they are night and day better.

I thought this was just a case of rose tinted glasses, but a couple of years ago I was at a friends, and he'd got his D50 out if storage, and yes, it was brilliant compared to my Novation.

Have keyboard manufacturers just forgotten how to make a good keyboard, or have they realised that cheaping out on the keyboard has caused very little pushback from us punters?

[Arpangel]

So what do we think happened since the 80s?q

It feels like quality has gone down where it really matters, yes, now you get thousands of sounds for your money, but how many sounds do you need? I'd rather have ten beautiful sounds in a quality package.
It's like hi-fi, you get rubbish at the bottom end these days, and you have to literally spend thousands to get anything approaching the quality of older cheaper gear, that's why vintage synths, even budget ones are so popular now, and people are realising that it's better to spend your money on older gear as you’ll get much more than buying new today for the same money.
Some things have got better (I'm trying to think of what) yes, you can get a synth that in the 80’s cost thousands now fits in your pocket and costs eighty quid, but so what? these are low quality toys basically.
The democratisation of music, that’s always rolled out, and it's a very overrated concept. There was a time when you had to have dedication and determination, to get what you needed, and the system filtered out those that didn’t have the required qualities not just musically, but in terms of dedication and commitment.
Quantity and cheapness, along with low quality, has devalued our expectations, now judgment is based on "its great for the money" rather than than on building up to a quality, I’d rather pay a bit more for something that actually works, like a decent keyboard, than put up with something that spoils the ship for a ha'p'orth of tar.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

I know plenty of other players who vehemently disagree with this POV, but...

Once I got a weighted controller 20 years ago, I completely went off semi-weighted keyboards. I feel like I have much better control of dynamics on a synth with a piano action. Even when I gigged with a Casio VZ-1 (same action as DX7, M1, SY77 etc.) and a Yamaha CS-5 above it, changing from one action to the other did not feel good at all, I struggled with it.

Any of the modern Korg, Roland Yamaha, Casio or Fatar actions are lovely. I even like the old Yamaha GHS action that they still put in their more affordable weighted keyboards.

Here is a fascinating tour of the Fatar factory:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoqDfXs ... =DoctorMix

[The Elf]

There are some lovely weighted action keyboards around these days, and as much as I'm a non-weighted guy, I do love the keys in my Kurzweil K2700, which is a Fatar.

It wasn't all rosey 'back then'. My MiniMoog's keyboard was pretty naff, and I had mine replaced a few years go when the keys began to break up. The keyboard on the SCI Pro-One was an abomination (also one I had replaced not so long ago). So let's not run away with the definitive idea that old=good, new=bad.

Of course there were good ones. The DX7, to me, was OK, but nothing wondrous. The D-50 was pretty good. I liked my JX-8P's keys, and the old EPS came with nice textured keys and poly aftertouch.

But there are lovely keyboards around now - just not necessarily on the devices that are targetted for mass appeal, where the extra cost of a decent keybed would not be appreciated.

[Hugh Robjohns]

A few glimpses of impressive manufacturing genius...

[Tomás Mulcahy]

It's interesting what we will put up with. I thought grand pianos were hard to play til I played a brand new Kawai. Turns out the other ones were just badly maintained! I had my CP80 serviced by a Yamaha trained technician, and it is an absolute joy. I did some harpsichord and organ at college, good ones- and those are truly awful actions IMO. Some lovely sounds though

I havae read that VZ-1, FZ-1, DX7, Sy77 and 99, M1, JX8P and D50 are all the same Matshita action but with some variations in the fittings so you cannot simply swap keybeds. But you can probably swap keys. They all age differently-a big thing is the lubricant used, which can dry out depending on storage conditions. I have an FZ-1 here (which has a led weight in each key) and it squeaks. I have an older Casio CT-6000 with a hilarious clunky early AT mech, and it is smooth (apart from the awful AT). And a final point on aging, the felt absorber under the key/ over the AT will change the feel dramatically too.

A few glimpses of impressive manufacturing genius...

It's amazing innit?

[Hugh Robjohns]

I love production engineering — all those uniquely specialised machines designed to optimise the construction of different products. Genius level skills are required to figure out things like having to injection mould eight notes rather than seven to keep the injection pressures balanced and accept the wastage for recycling. And building a machine to measure the velocity sensor tolerance variations.... superb.

I'm guessing one of the biggest differences in keybeds over the last few decades is the frame changing from metal to plastic. All my older instruments have metal frames... all the newer ones are plastic. I doubt it makes any difference when new, but over time maybe?

[MarkOne]

The thing is, this comes up reasonably regularly on the keyboard forum. And I think it's because as keyboard players we are more accepting of sub-standard keybeds.

Whereas our plank-spanking brethren next door are a far more finicky bunch and value playability much more highly

[Tomás Mulcahy]

I have fixed a few Yamaha GHS and those have a plastic frame. After 25 years the frame is fine. Where these fail is some keys break. Can be reliably repaired with judicious use of superglue and a metal reinforcement such as several flattened staples. The felt/ foam usually needs replacing at that age too. Good as new when done.

[Folderol]

Well, I was expecting some variations on the theme, but this is far more - and very interesting too.
The Nektar keyboard that I dislike has a noisy but very light action, such that I keep dipping into the aftertouch region when I don't want to, and this has a distracting spongy feel. For me, trying to play an actual full tune on it, two-handed is impossible

[Tomás Mulcahy]

Have keyboard manufacturers just forgotten how to make a good keyboard, or have they realised that cheaping out on the keyboard has caused very little pushback from us punters?

To be fair I would think they're building for the market: most buyers are not pianists, so they don't need that kind of action. Notwithstanding Tony's argument

Casio VX1

You mean the VZ-1? The VX1 was a calculator

[Lostgallifreyan]

It feels like quality has gone down where it really matters, yes, now you get thousands of sounds for your money, but how many sounds do you need? I'd rather have ten beautiful sounds in a quality package.

Some good posts here. It's time this whole issue with new boards was thrashed out because if people are driven to find 40-year-old boards to get anything worth a damn, then something's VERY WRONG!

About that great board with a few beautiful sounds, that sounds like a description of the Kurzweil PC-88. It had a wickedly good arpeggiator too. It's one of the few things I regret selling despite its size. (Can you believe I sold my first SY99 at that time too? Won't be doing that again. I did get a replacement for that..)

[Lostgallifreyan]

I have fixed a few Yamaha GHS and those have a plastic frame. After 25 years the frame is fine. Where these fail is some keys break. Can be reliably repaired with judicious use of superglue and a metal reinforcement such as several flattened staples. The felt/ foam usually needs replacing at that age too. Good as new when done.

I found a Yamaha KX5 once, long after I thought I'd never want to see one again, and I discovered that its keys had become brittle, the plasticiser leached out of them. It may have suffered unusual heat stress, but even so, it makes me prefer the newer boards from the 1990's. Less chance of finding them breaking like dry clay...

(This might also be a good basis for avoiding the single-key scalpers on Ebay, because if the instrument those came out of was tip top, they wouldn't be trying to scalp it, or us. Better to get a whole board with some way to gauge the history.. What some of the scalpers are useful for, is identifying compatibility, but judging by a list I saw on Ebay last night, they're not reliable. They cited 'compatibility' of their keys for instruments known to have different actions.