Headphone vs Monitors for mixing

[g18llo]

The title is slightly misleading, it's not about which is best, it's about:

99% of the time I use headphones for mixing, currently the Neumann NDH30's. I went down the headphone route 20 years ago simply for ease of use, not making external noise, etc., etc, and not for any other reason really; purely convenience.

I recently thought about using monitors again, so, I bought a set of Neumann KH80 DSP's, set them up on my desk and then began to compare mixes with the sound on the monitors with my headphones. Now, I know the stereo field will be wider with headphones, and stereo field placement will be more accurate on headphones, but what I instantly noticed with monitors was that I struggled to hear instrument/track separation, any small EQ changes that I'd notice on headphones weren't obvious on monitors, and, the volume I had to have the monitors on to accurately hear everything soon meant I had aural fatigue after a few hours.

So, my question is, is this normal for someone coming off headphones for so long, and therefore I have to "tough it out" until I get used to monitors? Or, is there a strange effect that occurs, that'd cause this perceived issue, if you flick between headphones and monitors in quick succession? Or, is it both, neither or something else completely different?

As it stands, I simply can't work with the monitors, I wouldn't trust even the basic of mixes. It can't be down to poor monitors, they're well-received in reviews (including on SOS), so I'm guessing it's just down to what I've become used to.

Thought on a postcard please...

[James Perrett]

The speakers themselves are only one consideration when it comes to monitoring. The room treatment and speaker positioning are just as important. Do you have enough acoustic treatment? Have you tried raising or lowering the speakers?

[ajay_m]

The big challenge with monitors is that they couple to the room acoustics in complex ways. Unless your listening environment is properly treated to ensure room reflections aren't an issue, you are going to get complex cancellation and reinforcement nodes at different frequencies and that doesn't even begin to address issues like flutter echo (where parallel walls introduce a "ringing" effect that can be clearly heard if you snap your fingers, for example.
Even at higher frequencies things can become problematic especially in smaller rooms. Play a 5KHz sinewave through the monitors and note how as you move your head the sound is reinforced and cancelled in complex ways.
Unlike a cat, we didn't evolve swivelling ears so in a typical near field listening position your ears aren't in line with the monitors either, which means at higher frequencies complex interactions occur with the pinnae of your ears as well.
[The next evolution of humanity will come with cranial optical connectors for a direct digital feed to the brain but we're stuck with the mk 1 version currently]

Smaller monitors like the kh80 are going to be challenged reproducing the low end compared to good headphones and again with headphones the higher frequencies are being fed to your ears via a short and stable path. Also channel separation is significantly better with headphones for obvious reasons.
The debate over mixing on headphones has raged for years. Since the vast majority of music seems to now be consumed through headphones, to be honest it seems to me to make sense to mix on them as well, provided they are a trustworthy neutral reference. However I defer to the vastly experienced folks at SOS as to the pros and cons of this approach.

[ef37a]

Room yes but I would bet you have been listening to programme at a higher level than you think on headphones? Easy to do since there is no simple way to know the sound pressure level at your ears.Not hard for monitors, you just need a basic C weighted sound level meter and the ones in phones are probably good enough. Then you can "calibrate" your monitors.
I would also takes slight issue with the statement "stereo imaging is more accurate on headphones"? But I stand to be properly informed about that!

Dave.

[The Elf]

It never concerns me what my mixes will be played on - I can make mixes on headphones that will sound just as good on speakers. Not everyone can, I recognise, but for me it works - and it sounds like it works for you too.

So I would say that if you are comfortable mixing on headphones then don't worry about it - thank your lucky stars and get on with the mixing!

[Tomás Mulcahy]

I a big fan of headphones, and I can get mixes to work on them just fine. But it’s easier and less tiring for me on speakers in a treated room. I was surprised how much more pleasant and efficient an experience it is- I’d forgotten, since it had been so long.

Without treatment I would find it impossible. The Neumann products are superb by the way.

[sonics]

It sounds like you may have got used to the isolation the headphones provide, and you're turning up the speakers to try and recreate that feeling.

Yes, check that you're not monitoring too loudly. Try to get the speakers as close to your ears as possible if you want to remove the room as much as you can. Is your mix room quiet?

[tea for two]

How is your hearing. What's your approx age.
What styles tunes.

You could just use your Neumann KH80 at lowish volume sitting close to them in their sweet spot to check levels of your mix compared to some reference mixes. Whilst doing the nitty gritty stuff on your Neumann Ndh30 phones.

::

My hearing is going down the pan. Stuff I could pick out on basic home hifi at low volume in my teens 20s I can't nowadays at least not so easily.
Headphones have kind of become a necessity for me for these reasons also others reasons : non treated room, apartment neighbours left right up down.
For any heevee Bass Beatz stuff I use a basic computer satellite n sub to check levels compared to some references, for mixes I did on headphones.
For other styles I just use headphones.

[Hugh Robjohns]

You're comparing apples and oranges here.

The NDH30s are a fair way towards the top of the food chain, while the KH80s are towards the bottom — good though they are.

The NDH30s are full bandwidth, while the KH80s are missing the bottom couple of octaves.

The NDH30s exclude the room, while your KH80s are hugely dependent on it — meaning your core room acoustics, the type and placement of room treatment, the strength and nature of local reflections off your desk and computer screens, all of which will rapidly degrade what the KH80s are producing. I suspect this is a major part of the difficulties you're having.

Then there's the difference between the way the brain works when listening to headphones (where each ear processes sound independently) and on speakers (where the ears work together).

And finally, there's familiarity and currency — it takes time and practice to learn to mix in different environments with different tools.

I'd also question one assertion — stereo placement is more accurate on speakers since it depends on inter-aural time delays and other factors which don't exist in headphones (unless you're into complex binaural processing).

And the track separation thing is likely to be a spatial unmasking benefit of headphone listening which doesn't work on speakers — and/or your monitoring acoustics are adding a lot of local reflections that clutter up the stereo imaging.

So, to sum up, I'd suggest analysing and (if possible) improve your monitoring acoustics with particular attention to strong local reflections/diffraction as a first step, and also appreciate the inherent differences between reasonably high-end headphones and miniature speakers...

[RichardT]

Everything you describe fits with your room acoustics blurring and distorting the sound. Not hearing detail, or the impact of changes, and needing to listen loud are all signs of a lack of resolution.

Plus as Hugh says the KH80s are not on the same plane as the phones.

I think significant room treatment is what you need.

[g18llo]

The NDH30s are a fair way towards the top of the food chain, while the KH80s are towards the bottom — good though they are.

The NDH30s are full bandwidth, while the KH80s are missing the bottom couple of octaves.

What I found is, on the monitors, if I solo just the keyboard busses (B.Clearmountain has already started to write a letter of complaint!), then compare the cans to the speakers, they're broadly similar. However, as I add the drum buss, guitar buss etc. to the output, the more the speakers seem to turn to mush. It's almost as though there are so many frequencies fighting with each other than there's an overload; the mix seems to implode in on itself. Jump back to the cans, the mix sounds absolutely fine.

As a reference, I listened to "Woman In Chains" on both, unsurprisingly the mixes were closer to each other, but, the cans still stood out by some margin with regards to clarity and separation.

A few people have commented on my assertion that the stereo imaging, to my ears, is better on cans, and I know that's an unusual opinion and so that's why I asked the original question as I thought possibly I'm of a hearing type that doesn't lend itself to monitors. Sadly, it has been so long since I mixing on monitors, probably 90's, I have no real-world reference in that respect. With cans, I've steadily upgraded to better models and each time I've noticed an increase in accuracy of my mixes.

[g18llo]

It sounds like you may have got used to the isolation the headphones provide, and you're turning up the speakers to try and recreate that feeling.

Yes, check that you're not monitoring too loudly. Try to get the speakers as close to your ears as possible if you want to remove the room as much as you can. Is your mix room quiet?

I did think that, as my first port of call. So, I solo'd my keyboard busses, I flicked between cans and monitors and set the levels such that I could hear the same information, with the same clarity, on both. However, as I added more busses to the output the monitor mix steadily began to collapse whilst the headphone mix seemed to support itself pretty well.

[g18llo]

It never concerns me what my mixes will be played on - I can make mixes on headphones that will sound just as good on speakers. Not everyone can, I recognise, but for me it works - and it sounds like it works for you too.

So I would say that if you are comfortable mixing on headphones then don't worry about it - thank your lucky stars and get on with the mixing!

I'm aware that my cans are pretty high-up on the food chain, whilst the monitors are towards the lower end, but the disparity made me box up the KH80's so that they can be sold on!! The difference was night and day, but, I presumed (stupidly) that the cans and monitors would be far closer than the turned out to be. I'm awaiting someone telling me that I'll need ACS's to get close to the NDH30's!

[g18llo]

I would also takes slight issue with the statement "stereo imaging is more accurate on headphones"? But I stand to be properly informed about that!

That's the main driver for the question; I know that's an odd viewpoint and so that's why I thought there'd be a reason for this odd imbalance. It would appear, judging by some of the later comments, this is down to the respective place on the food chain the NDH30's and the KH80's are, i.e. one's almost at the top whilst the other is somewhere near the bottom.

[g18llo]

Plus as Hugh says the KH80s are not on the same plane as the phones.

I think significant room treatment is what you need.

I was reasonably sure from the get-go that the NDH30 vs the KM80 wasn't going to be a fair fight, but, I thought it'd be closer fought.

The idea of room treatment, significant or otherwise, leaves me in cold sweat as I know it's not as simple as egg tiles and corner baffles. I should also have said my room is an odd shape., very, and so reflections would be an absolute nightmare.

[g18llo]

The speakers themselves are only one consideration when it comes to monitoring. The room treatment and speaker positioning are just as important. Do you have enough acoustic treatment? Have you tried raising or lowering the speakers?

Disclaimer: the room as NO treatment, and, it's a very bizarre shape too. I have no real way of treating it, nor do I have the desire if I'm honest, but I knew from the outset this'd be an issue hence going for very near-field monitors. What I should have added, I did previously use Andy Munro's Eggs, the 150 version, and those had a far, far better stereo placement than the KH80's. They'd still collapse the mix a little, when I added more busses to the output, but far less so.

I presumed that a modern Neumann near-field would be a better bet than 10-15 year old Egg's, but, I'm beginning to feel that's probably not the case. Perhaps I was more used to the Egg's, perhaps they're better suited to my odd room/odd hearing.

[Bob Bickerton]

My monitoring set-up is the same as yours, NDH-30s and KH80s, with one important difference, I have a professionally designed treated room.

Most of what Hugh says is correct (unsurprisingly), except I wouldn’t put KH80s at the bottom of the monitoring food chain! I’ve heard far worse monitors and they are really quite exceptional for their size.

The NDH-30s are the best headphones I’ve used for monitoring/mixing and have a remarkable open stage sound for headphones, but mixing on headphones will always be different to speakers as has been said.

What I also find interesting is that there’s definitely a familial sound between the NDHs and KHs. I would be happy to mix full time on the NDHs, but would always want to check mixes on the KHs and vice versa.

What you describe then are issues with your untreated room. Until you treat it professionally (probably the best gear investment you’ll ever make) you’re wasting your time considering speakers…….

Bob

[Hugh Robjohns]

All in all, it sounds like you don't have the room, or the budget, for high-end speakers that would compare realistically to your headphones.

And to be fair to the KH80s, they were never going to give their best in that room, by the sound of it, and I suspect they are too underpowered and with too restricted an LF response to have a fighting chance against your headphones.

[Hugh Robjohns]

...except I wouldn’t put KH80s at the bottom of the monitoring food chain! I’ve heard far worse monitors and they are really quite exceptional for their size.

I've heard far worse, too, but while their manufacturers call them 'monitors', I wouldn't!

So from the 'true monitor grade' perspective, I'd say the KH80s — as good as they undoubtedly are — are near the entry point of high-quality monitors.

To be realistically comparable with the best headphones you're looking at physically large monitors costing in excess of £5k, and the prices go on up to £30k+ for full range, mastering quality monitors. And even then, they'll only deliver the goods in a professionally designed and constructed acoustic room.

Which is why high-end headphones are such impressive value.

[Arpangel]

Headphones are OK if you’ve got "perfect" hearing but any deficiencies seem to emphasise defects in your ears.

[RichardT]

Plus as Hugh says the KH80s are not on the same plane as the phones.

I think significant room treatment is what you need.

I was reasonably sure from the get-go that the NDH30 vs the KM80 wasn't going to be a fair fight, but, I thought it'd be closer fought.

The idea of room treatment, significant or otherwise, leaves me in cold sweat as I know it's not as simple as egg tiles and corner baffles. I should also have said my room is an odd shape., very, and so reflections would be an absolute nightmare.

I think they will be closer than they currently appear. I have a pair of high-end Focal phones and a pair of KH120s and while the phones are better, the clarity of the KH120s is good, and the KH80s are probably better.

There will always be a difference of course. I mix on phones and do final checks on monitors, but that is really to pick up things that phones miss, especially rogue dynamics and stereo imaging issues that listening on phones always seems to mask.

My feeling is that I don’t need £20k monitors to pick up the speaker-specific issues - reasonable monitors will do for that, and I rely on the phones to get the mix basically sound.

Room treatment is actually quite simple! The easiest route is to contact someone like GIK, send their your room dimensions and let them suggest some treatment.

The two other things to think about are the speaker position and the listening position.

If you post your room dimensions here, people will be able to give you some pointers.

[g18llo]

Room treatment is actually quite simple! The easiest route is to contact someone like GIK, send their your room dimensions and let them suggest some treatment.

I have a very odd shaped room, top floor of a modern build, so I have a sloping ceiling shaped like the roof, I have a door opening right behind my desk, either side of that door opening there's an alcove in the eves of the roof.

The issue is also that I'm not sure what I'm listening for, in terms how the room is affecting the monitor sound, and so I've always worried that I'd be going down a rabbit hole in the dark, with a blindfold and sunglasses on.

[Drew Stephenson]

If you're happy mixing on headphones, and happy with your output (and the clients are happy), then stick with it.
There are plenty of people producing top flight mixers without going near a set of monitors.

But personally I like my KH80s.

[amanise]

About 90% of my mixing is done on headphones for the same reasons as yours. I check periodically with cheapish monitors whose frequency curves I'm cognisant of, and know well against a reference track. The third element is a check on cheap ear buds. I find that check fights with the monitor check. There's only so much you can do in terms of striking a best compromise across that range of listening devices. Sometimes I check on an old cheap TV soundbar too if I can be bothered. As long as you know what your best reference track should sound like on each it's fine. I'd stay with working mostly on your headphones if that's where you've become most comfortable. Then some checks on other things as necessary. I'm with those who say it's OK to do that if your room is not perfect. Few are now.

[RichardT]

Room treatment is actually quite simple! The easiest route is to contact someone like GIK, send their your room dimensions and let them suggest some treatment.

I have a very odd shaped room, top floor of a modern build, so I have a sloping ceiling shaped like the roof, I have a door opening right behind my desk, either side of that door opening there's an alcove in the eves of the roof.

The issue is also that I'm not sure what I'm listening for, in terms how the room is affecting the monitor sound, and so I've always worried that I'd be going down a rabbit hole in the dark, with a blindfold and sunglasses on.

I understand! It does seem intimidating. There are two main things to aim for - reducing reflections arriving at the listening position, and reducing the build up of standing waves that create potentially enormous peaks and troughs in the frequency response at mid to low frequencies, plus cause smearing of the sound through long-lasting resonances.

Broadband trapping (using Rockwool or similar) can help with both of these. I’ve found it’s quite easy to hear the difference, and it’s not subtle!

But if you’re happy with the phones, you might well decide just to stick with them. It’s a fair bit of work to treat a room, though not difficult, and it sounds like you may not be able to do it anyway. If you can’t, sticking with phones is what I’d recommend.

As you’ve found, a difficult, untreated room can make using monitors a thankless task.