Ground problem in laptops

[Dunewar]

I've been looking into using a laptop only setup for quick and mobile recording. Plugins like the StJames plugin from Blackstar or Archetype plugins from Neural DSP are incredible and can get you any sound you want.
The only downside i've ran into is that with a lot of laptops, there is no path to ground. Most laptops have a two prong lead with no earth connection as they are double insulated. This leaves the ground floating, introducing all kinds of artifacts in the audio. Most plugins solve this by inserting a gate, and for low gain sounds it is ok, but as soon as you hit higher gain sounds it sounds terrible. I tried the Rabeaa Massaad plugin from Neural DSP, and it sounds awfull.
A solution is to run a jack from my audio interface to an amp, even if it is turned down, as this provides a path to ground. As soon as I do that ,the audio becomes crystal clear, even in very high gain settings.
This got me thinking. What if I create a plug that only has the earth connected to the sleeve of a quarter inch jack on the other side to plug into my audio interface. I tried an improvised setup and it worked like a charm.
I got in touch with a company that sells dummy plugs with plastic prongs except for the earth connection. I do need to put together the right cable for it. The company is specialised in "earthing yourself", new age type of products. I saw that Hugh Robjohns had the same idea several years ago, but I could not find a single commercial product available.

Am I the only one struggling with this? Would there be interest in an affordable (<25 quid) product containing a plug and cable ready made for this?

[Wonks]

You don’t actually need the guitar amp on, just plugged in. The input jack sleeve connection is always connected to earth (applies to mains-powered amps, not battery or external PSU ones).

[James Perrett]

Products like this actually exist -

https://www.antistat.co.uk/product/eart ... 10mm-stud/

is an example. There are also people who sell earthed bedsheets which are supposed to help you sleep but the grounded plugs will do the same job.

Just be aware that some of these devices connect the earth via a high value resistor which isn't what you need in this application.

[Wonks]

I've just checked my anti-static grounding plug + wrist strap and that's got a 1 meg resistor in both the plug and the strap (so 2 meg in total).

The plug James linked to has no in-built resistor, so all you'd need is a suitable lead with a snap-on connector on one end and a jack plug with the sleeve soldered to the wire on the other end and you'd be fine. The standard grounding leads have the resistor at one end, so that end could be cut off and a jack plug soldered on. My lead has the resistor end clearly marked.

[Hugh Robjohns]

This is a common problem, and I wrote about it, and a practical, safe, solution here:

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/gr ... ction-plug

Other 'grounding plugs' are available, but most are intended for preventing static build-up when working with sensitive equipment. As mentioned by others above, these typically have a 1M Ohm resistor in the ground line to minimise any discharge current — which is great for sensitive equipment, but no use at all for solidly grounding an interface/laptop!!!

The sales blurb doesn't always make clear whether the plug offers a direct ground or a 1MOhm discharge resistor, so beware.

Groundology is a reliable source of proper, safe, well-made grounding plugs, with alternatives for different mains outlets all around the world. Not the cheapest (and it's a bit of a tree-hugging loony website), but you only buy once....

Don't forget to buy the lead (sold separately) because the plug type they use is a non-standard size.

All you need to do is cut off the stud fixing at one end of the lead and replace with a convenient audio plug, soldering the wire to its ground terminal (sleeve of a TRS plug or pin1 in an XLR).

So, you will need a cord (£6):



https://www.groundology.co.uk/earthing/ ... -cord-4.6m

And a grounding plug (this is the UK one at £10):


https://www.groundology.co.uk/earthing/ ... on-plug-uk

In the UK, the plug, lead, and tracked delivery will set you back just under £20 in total, which feels just about an acceptable cost for solving nasty ungrounded noise problems safely (if the other connected equipment options mentioned earlier) aren't available. I use mine all the time....

Plugs for other types of mains outlet are here: https://www.groundology.co.uk/earthing/ ... ction_plug... but obviously rely on the wall socket being wired with a decent earth connection, which may not be guaranteed in all parts of the world.

[Dunewar]

I came to the exact same conclusion, but I was wondering if anyone actually offers this ready made for guitarists. Like a no-resistance earth-only plug connected to a jack on the other end, ready to use for non-soldering guitarists.

I can build this easily, but I was actually wondering, if there is enough demand, I could do it to a higher standard and offer it commercially, perhaps via a kickstarter.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I'm not aware of anyone offering a commercial product of this type specifically for laptop guitarists.

But I highly doubt you could ever sell enough to justify bulk buying the parts, and then making and stocking a batch. So the chances of getting source component discounts would be unlikely... plus there would be double postage costs to fund... meaning profit margins would be small to non-existent.

There's also the potential safety aspect liability if the product gets misused, and the problem of the product being bought by people for whom an absent ground isn't their real problem at all, with the grounding plug potentially making things worse not better. So it's likely there'll be the added hassle of a relatively high percentage of returns and refunds to deal with.

Most guitarists are able to cut one wire and solder on one plug — or get the help of a soldering-capable friend, to do it — it's trivially simple. Which makes this seem like a poor commercial project to me! (I went through the same kind of thinking about pseudo-balanced cables recently). But who knows... it could be the start of your rise to being the next Alan Sugar

[Wonks]

Another consideration is that not all bus-powered or Class 2 PSU-powered audio interfaces have a spare jack socket you could connect into, especially the smaller units. Some may have unused RCA sockets that could be used, whilst others may need a crocodile clip to grip some exposed metalwork (provided it's connected to the PCB/signal ground in some way). Or possibly a ring connector that could be screed to the AI chassis by a case screw.

There won't be a suitable one-size-fits all solution, and you can't be affordable and make money if you send out a multitude of cables as part of the kit.

Even if you said that AI make X, model Y has several jack or RCA sockets for ground connection, you can't assume that the user won't already be using those connections.

You'd have to fully ascertain what connections they have spare before sending anything out. All adds time (and so cost).

[Dunewar]

I have the exact same one hugh is talking about, but european model. I've been in touch with the supplier, and a large quantity price is on the table should anyone be interested. That being said, I also found out who their chinese supplier is, so I could probably go direct but then I need high volumes. This is the model i'm talking about :



I put a jack on one end, but it looks a little ridiculous, as the original lead is very tiny.

I could probably make a better lead using a banana plug on one side and a jack/rca/xlr on the other side.

About the fact that most guitarists know how to solder... perhaps on this forum they do, but in general? no way.

[Hugh Robjohns]

But I bet they all know someone who can! Even if it's the tech in the local guitar shop.

I would have used some stepped sleeving over the lead coming from the jack plug...

I have two versions of lead: one with a TRS plug (so I can pop it into a headphone or balanced line output without shorting the right channel amp as a TS plug would), and one with a croc-clip.

I use the TRS version much more often just becuase it is convenience the completely stable in use, but the croc-clip version is more handy for general testing, and when an interface is fully occupied.... but it can ping-off at inconvenient moments if not careful!

[Dunewar]

This was the only jack lying around. In hindsight, an angled jack was also not the right choice, but hey, it works... I do like the idea of a croc clip, I actually have a second lead around here (they come in pairs of two).
The set is good value : less than 20€ for two leads and one plug.

I'm not looking to "make it big", I just saw that no-one was offering this to guitarists.

[Hugh Robjohns]

True... but I did tell them how to do it ten years ago!

[Dunewar]

I actually have a first attempt here where I took a bog standard electrical lead, cut of the two power wires and kept the connection to the earth connected to a jack on the other side. I was worried about the fact that the two prongs were connected to power (albeit with cut cables), so I went looking for a solution with plastic prongs and came across your article.
At that point I was wondering : how hard can it be to have this manufactured properly and sell it?
But perhaps I am overestimating the market size (after all, I am a target group of 1) and the fact that these "earthing" products are easily adaptable.

[ef37a]

I actually have a first attempt here where I took a bog standard electrical lead, cut of the two power wires and kept the connection to the earth connected to a jack on the other side. I was worried about the fact that the two prongs were connected to power (albeit with cut cables), so I went looking for a solution with plastic prongs and came across your article.
At that point I was wondering : how hard can it be to have this manufactured properly and sell it?
But perhaps I am overestimating the market size (after all, I am a target group of 1) and the fact that these "earthing" products are easily adaptable.

You could just hacksaw off the live and neutral pins. 99.9% of 13A outlets use the earth pin to cam open the L&N sockets. There was for a short time a 13A socket that used a weird plastic gizmo on L&N instead but it seems it was unreliable because they seem to be gone now?

Dave.

[Wonks]

Given the number of people using laptops and bus-powered or class 2 PSU-powered interfaces and headphones, the market size is probably bigger than you think.

The problem is getting people to realise they need one in the first place. That’s the hard part.

As well as simply making the things, you’d need a lot of educational marketing. And ideally you’d first sell them a multimeter to check for existing ground paths. It’s often hard to differentiate between ground loop issues (too many grounds) and lack of any ground.

There were a couple of signal ground connection boxes for guitar/TS leads on the market a few years ago (Thomann had one). But they seemed to disappear quite quickly.

Edit: Thomann do still make one (I know it did disappear at one time).

https://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_groundbox.htm

Comes with a European plug, and I don’t think they have to give you a UK plug version any more. It should work with an adapter, but that always feels less secure to me.

[Dunewar]

Given the number of people using laptops and bus-powered or class 2 PSU-powered interfaces and headphones, the market size is probably bigger than you think.

The problem is getting people to realise they need one in the first place. That’s the hard part.

As well as simply making the things, you’d need a lot of educational marketing. And ideally you’d first sell them a multimeter to check for existing ground paths. It’s often hard to differentiate between ground loop issues (too many grounds) and lack of any ground.

There were a couple of signal ground connection boxes for guitar/TS leads on the market a few years ago (Thomann had one). But they seemed to disappear quite quickly.

Edit: Thomann do still make one (I know it did disappear at one time).

https://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_groundbox.htm

Comes with a European plug, and I don’t think they have to give you a UK plug version any more. It should work with an adapter, but that always feels less secure to me.

This is exactly what i'm talking about!! I am in Europe, and I am a regular Thomann customer, but I never saw this. And it is actually cheaper than what I bought from the earthing guys.

[Hugh Robjohns]

It's a new one on me, but it looks a useful product.

[merlyn]

I'm don't understand this. It looks like the ground lead has a socket on the end.

Unless it's being suggested that the most dangerous lead on earth is required -- that is a length of mains flex with a plug on both ends. (Don't make one of these).

[Sam Spoons]

I did come across a yotty who had separate shore power and 230V inverter circuits on his boat said he was going to make up such a lead to connect his inverter circuit to his shore power circuit when in the marina... A possible candidate for the Darwin awards methinks.

The plug on the right is one of these but with no line or neutral pins

[merlyn]

I see. I would think then that if a person isn't 100% confident with mains and is in the UK the Groundology plug is a good option as the plastic live and neutral pins make it foolproof.

[Sam Spoons]

Yes, agreed in the UK having them there is an additional safety feature, otherwise it would be possible to insert the plug upside down (difficult to do with the short pins preventing the earth pin from going in far enough to lift the shutters and allow something to be stuck into the line or neutral receptacle.

That EU Shuko plug does not have the same issue as even if it was possible to insert it upside down the line and neutral would be covered and the shutters are not lifted by an earth pin.

[Wonks]

The Harley Benton unit comes with a Euro plug with no live or neutral pins, just the earth strip connections.

Since Brexit, I don’t know if they (Thomann) have to supply a suitable adapter if there isn’t a UK plug version available. But even with a standard Euro to UK adapter plug, the safety aspect is built into the provided Euro plug.

[merlyn]

There's this at a whopping £3.56 :


There's no resistor in that one. Available from Bondline :

https://www.bondline.co.uk/product/eart ... g-plugs/bp

[Wonks]

James has already linked to that plug near the start of the thread, though a different retailer I believe.

It has the drawback of needing a cable with a snap connector at one end, rather than running the earth wire into a standard screw terminal, but it’s all easily achievable. At some point you’ll need to get the soldering iron out to fit a jack plug or XLR to the other end of the lead.

[merlyn]

If you look at the link there's customisation options. A nice solution for using a Harley Benton Groundbox in the UK would be to use an ESD plug with a banana socket, which is one of the customisation options. Then cut the schuko off and replace it with a banana plug. The ground lead now has a banana plug on both ends.