Setting up my Neumann KMS 105 with my digital desk

[James Perrett]

Jeepers, I’ve just looked at the price of a 105
and a D5 in comparison, and it's interesting that the D5 can be considered alongside the 105.

If you look at my Eclectics thread in the self promotion forum you'll be able to hear and compare them. Liv is using a KMS105 on most of them while Tegan is using a D5.

Here's the Soundcloud page

https://soundcloud.com/the-eclectics-917661011

Can you work out which is which? And can you spot the vocal overdub that was done with a U87?

[Arpangel]

Jeepers, I’ve just looked at the price of a 105
and a D5 in comparison, and it's interesting that the D5 can be considered alongside the 105.

If you look at my Eclectics thread in the self promotion forum you'll be able to hear and compare them. Liv is using a KMS105 on most of them while Tegan is using a D5.

Here's the Soundcloud page

https://soundcloud.com/the-eclectics-917661011

Can you work out which is which? And can you spot the vocal overdub that was done with a U87?

I can’t hear any difference.

[Dave Rowles]

Thing is it's all about matching the mic to the performer and the situation as always. I was on a gig with Tracy Chapman, and they were using a KMS105 on her vocal. She sounded great, but the techs sounded better on an SM58 plugged into the same channel with the same EQ.

I've heard the D5 sound great...I've heard it sound utterly horrible and useless. I'm currently liking the sE V7 as an all rounder, but still encounter a few people where the SM58 works best. the KMS105 only comes out when a really silky smooth vocal sound is needed, and it's quiet stage.

[Arpangel]

Thing is it's all about matching the mic to the performer and the situation as always. I was on a gig with Tracy Chapman, and they were using a KMS105 on her vocal. She sounded great, but the techs sounded better on an SM58 plugged into the same channel with the same EQ.

I've heard the D5 sound great...I've heard it sound utterly horrible and useless. I'm currently liking the sE V7 as an all rounder, but still encounter a few people where the SM58 works best. the KMS105 only comes out when a really silky smooth vocal sound is needed, and it's quiet stage.

I can understand that, the 105 would probably bring out the beneficial detail in the right voice, where other mic's might not sound as subtle, female vocal, small Jazz gig, maybe.

[Bob Bickerton]

That's the thing, it's also to do with application as well as the voice. Massive onstage bleed, Audix OM7 is great but you have to be glued to it. I trialled a D5 and sure it would sound great on some voices, but, like a number of other stage vocal mics, it can also sound edgy, though some would like the 'cut'.

I think I had around 10 different stage vocal mics in the cupboard at one stage, more often than not, and I was doing mainly acoustic festival stuff, it would be mics like the KMS105, M88, M69 and e840 being used. For myself I generally use an M201 with its bespoke foam wind sock (but I'm not much of a popper).

KMS105 would not suit certain applications - e.g. a rock and roller swinging the mic on the end of its cord - that's why they make SM58s

Bob

[Sam Spoons]

KMS105 would not suit certain applications - e.g. a rock and roller swinging the mic on the end of its cord - that's why they make SM58s

Bob

And for hammering in nails

[James Perrett]

I can’t hear any difference.

And that's pretty much my point - any half decent mic can be made to work if you can make the right adjustments.

[Arpangel]

That's the thing, it's also to do with application as well as the voice. Massive onstage bleed, Audix OM7 is great but you have to be glued to it. I trialled a D5 and sure it would sound great on some voices, but, like a number of other stage vocal mics, it can also sound edgy, though some would like the 'cut'.

I think I had around 10 different stage vocal mics in the cupboard at one stage, more often than not, and I was doing mainly acoustic festival stuff, it would be mics like the KMS105, M88, M69 and e840 being used. For myself I generally use an M201 with its bespoke foam wind sock (but I'm not much of a popper).

KMS105 would not suit certain applications - e.g. a rock and roller swinging the mic on the end of its cord - that's why they make SM58s

Bob

We had a few dynamic vocal mic's here at one point and did a comparison, spoken voice.
The M88 was my favourite, overall, we had Sennheiser MD421 (very nice) Beyer 201, M88, SM57/58.
I did try a 201 on my voice recently, and I ended up going back to the SM57, it just sounds better on my voice, we use the 201 on our Marimba, as a stereo pair, on that it's fantastic, really good at percussive things in general.

[matt04ie]

Sorry for delay to all that's taken an interest on this topic I know it's jumping in and out of the topic in hand but every bit of advice down the line here is absolutely vital and may help someone out. Especially the likes of me who's been in the music business for the last 45 years, and at one stage I did not have time to bless myself running a 5 piece band and discos.

And now after taking a step back from the busy scene I just want to be able to go out do my few gigs on my own be it with just the backing tracks and guitars or play live with my keyboards and have a sound that I can be proud of both vocally and musically.

OK, yes, I did say backing tracks, which I'm very much against recently and the only reason I'm using tracks at one or two of my gigs is simply because the venue, strange as it may sound, do not under any circumstances want keyboards. We won't go there, but I'll play live when I can.

Taking on the Digital Presonus Desk was indeed a big step for me, I just wanted to move with the times and ok I'm getting a good sound each night and able to put on a good show. Punters are happy but we all know us musicians and singers are never really happy, always something in the back of your mind is saying you could have been better.

I always wanted a KMS 105 and now that I have one I just hate to put it aside and use a cheaper mic like as I think Bob said the E945 which was my main mic up till the kms, yes it's a great mic it was actually reccomended to me by a sound engineers assistant telling me how in a concert the Sm58 would be taken down and either the Beta58a or the E945 would be much preferred by both male and female vocalist.

Even just last night I bit the bullet after reading previously here the Kms may not always be the perfect mic on the night for the venue and I did set up the kMS first and sound checked. Straight away I said no no let's try the E945 and ok I'll try all my mics which are as follows.

The Sm58 workhorse,
the Beta58a
Beyer Dynamic M69tg and the M88tg
the SHURE565SD feddys mic, cheap but surprisingly good,
and the sev7 another mic reccomended to me in Gran Canaria one night.

But I ended up out of all using the Sennheiser E945 and reluctant to put the expensive KMS back in it's case, so there you go.

it was mentioned the KMS do not like to be shouted into well hard rock, nice for soft ballads and I think it really shines here but definitely not to be pushed,

Bob mentioned, too, that I go get a good sound technician to help me with my issues, which is solid sound advice, I don't think for one second anyone is being critical on what's been said, but all advice is most welcome, after all there is a lot to be learned here with regards to sound overall be it pa speakers my RCF 935a and Subs Behringer B1500xp Desk presonus 16:4:2 and mics mentioned above, so much marketing hype on you tube, this is the best that's the best, buy this you won't be sorry, still half if not all this is sponsored to promote, only truths come out here on this platform, honest genuine people that has the experience of use and know if a product is good or bad, prevent throwing good money away

OK ok this brings me back to the sound advice I got to go for the Behringer producer and ended up buying the secondhand Presonus desk now I'm being told I should have gone for the presonus Ai with 4 FX and router insert,
I won't go there I'll get used to what I have first and the the advice on getting a good sound engineer and pay him or her
whatever the cost I think it was Bob that said this, again thanks to everyone who bother to read my long winded posts, I love reading your reply and stories, right time to end here and get looking for practical professional help, chow for now

(some punctuation and paragraphs added to make it easier to read - Andy)

[matt04ie]

QUICK QUESTION

just got offered another presonus desk saying it is far far better than the classic 16:4:2
Im told I should buy The Ai updated version, much much better sounding
and 4 fx, sure what would I want with 4fx

[Drew Stephenson]

If it ain't broke...

[matt04ie]

Hi I know if it ain't broke don't fix it, but is it true the presonus Ai is a far better sounding desk overall, or again is just just marketing hype

[Wonks]

To be 'far better', the 16:4:2 would have to be far worse. Sound-wise I they aren't going to be that different at all. General specs appear to be identical in all but a few cases.

The Ai has two extra global effects engines, but the per-channel effects are the same. Internal operation is 32-bit floating point on both mixers.

The maximum input level on the Ai line input is +22dBu rather than +16dBu, but that's more for use with studio outboard gear than most live situations. Mic input levels are the same, as are all the outputs.

So the 16:4:2Ai is a development of the 16:4:2, not a major leap forward.

If you aren't going to make use of four send effect engines, then I can see no reason to change. If you want to change, then it's only really worth it for a much better featured mixer, and not one with Firewire.

Even then, unless you are also going to get much better speakers than the RCF/Behringer combination, say a Fohhn system, then you are unlikely to hear any benefits from a new mixer. The real benefits of a new mixer will be if it's easier to set up and understand.

[matt04ie]

Oh here we go again round in circles, thank Wonks you just saved me splashing out on another desk 12 years old,
as for my RCF's 935A's I'm very happy with them even though I may not be sitting the dsp correctly on them, right now they are running on Linear and my Subs attached,

But going back to the desk issue
it's all pointing towards me getting the Behringer compact or producer which is what was advised a good few times,
more up to date tech and more realiable

As for my Neumann KMS 105
I'm now thinking of selling this on to someone that's going to make use of it, pointless on me keeping it if each night it's going to end up in it's pouch and the E945 doing all the work,
Like it was mentioned super mic for soft songs but not to be pushed which most of my songs are from country to rock and pop,

But from all the advice given yes I'm going to look out for a behringer and use the presonus 16:4:2 for now, makes more sense don't you think

I know a few of you will say ( sure that's what we are trying to tell you all along)

[Wonks]

We're here to help and talk you through your questions and decisions. I've just revisited some of my old posts here from 2016 and I can see just how much more I know now than then. Sometimes you do have to ask similar questions and get similar replies before it all starts making sense.

Given a bit more time and maybe some external input when sound checking, I'm sure you'd get the KMS 105 working well. It's used by David Gilmour and Matt Bellamy (Muse) amongst others, so it's not just for soft female vocalists.

But if it doesn't work for you, then there's no point hanging on to it.

[matt04ie]

Thanks Wonks, yeah it's certainly a super mic to have in your box of tricks, but from reading a few previous posts here, saying that for every performance the kms 105 may not be the perfect mic, but you know what, I could go all out like I did last Sunday night and set up My RCF's and my 15" behringer Subs, going through my box of mics to find the perfect one for the performance,
I did have time to do sound checks, but I had the venue hopping, when the manager comes to me and said what's that boom boom thumping sound it's very boomy at the back wall, honestly some people can rattle your cage,
I ended up dropping the volume completely on the subs the B1500xp
wouldn't say they are a very powerful grind shaking sub especially at 15" but can you imagine if I paid out big money and even got the 18" and then being told turn them off, I would be fuming,
still though the RCF's were also too loud
by the way, and when in fact they were not, but it was amazing to see how quickly the atmosphere within the lounge room diminished when the bottom end of my sound disappeared, I'd say over 100 people
luckily my E945 was good and clear throughout the night, but it was as though the manager really just wanted background music, well that's what it felt like to me, even people approached me and asked what happened my sound, I just said not my problem, I said I have the sound but management told me to tame it,

Yes I did ponder over my Kms 105 sitting in its case, so my point here is, going out and spending big money to put on a good show and dictated to turn down, oh god give me strength,

I have pulled back to think hard, but made the decision to not get the presonus Ai desk and informed the seller also, so that's off the cards now, as for the Kms 105 it's up for sale now for 475 euro
so my next vision now is the Behringer compact, and maybe less powerful active speakers, the Rcf s are great but not being used to their full potential, I have them set at 2 on the clock and maybe they should be turned up full and output level controlled by the desk
Another name for that I came across on youtube is ( Proper Gain Structure)

so yeah I'm still learning and I have a sound guy calling on Saturday to go through the desk, FOH setup and monitor mix and I may take out the kms 105 also before I do end up being sorry I sold it, my head is about to explode
here with all that's going on with regards to my whole setup,

asking myself did I make the right decision to buy the RCF's for live use , should I have got better subs, did I do right by going digital from analogue and selling my Dynacord P5 system and my CMS 1000 mk2 desk, I don't know really

But like I said it's always great to come on here and get the advice of the professionals

[Bob Bickerton]

I don’t mean to be cruel, and hopefully I’m wrong, but the nature of your posts indicates you really do need to gain a better understanding of how live sound works and what the process of performing live actually entails.

Here’s a few thoughts you may wish to consider:

I’m pleased you have a sound professional coming in to give you advice (they are a professional aren’t they?) Given the nature of your posts, I’d suggest engaging someone for a series of lessons so that you can upskill on a broad range of live sound topics including gain structure, room acoustics, EQing your system to the room, individual channel EQ and compression and the role/impact of each element in the sound system food chain.

The customer is always right - so you need to talk with whoever has engaged you to negotiate what would be acceptable levels. Turning down subs relative to the tops makes no sense unless they were not ‘balanced’ with the tops in the first place (probably room problems too).

Having a system with headroom is a good thing. It’s OK to run your speakers below maximum volume!

Probably any of the mics you own will suffice for your sound - live sound is generally a compromise at the best of times! If your show is on the louder side, which it appears to be from your comments, then a mic with the best feedback rejection might be your best friend.

So, if I were you, I’d forget worrying about your gear, learn how to use it and only make purchasing decisions once you’re really on top of producing live sound. Your mixer is fine (I used to own one) and it’s layout is easy to follow, your mics are good and your speakers are powerful enough.

Apologies if you feel this is unfair, my comments a purely based on the information you have given, and I wish you well.

Bob

[matt04ie]

Thanks Bob like I said previously I don't take offence to anything being said, it's all as I say constructive criticism which is very much welcomed of course,

In today's world tech has changed vastly, but is that a good or bad thing, some may say yes others may say no, how is it that 10 years, ago I never had an issue with sound,

Bob your right I do need to learn how to use my gear which I now have to the best of my ability, the sound guy that's coming to me this weekend is he a top professional, I'm told he's good so I'll go with that for now,

Coming from the world of Analogue into digital is a whole new ball game for me
as I'm sure I'm not the only one, would you believe I spoke with a good few live bands and told them my story and they said no way were they even considering going digital,

I'm glad to read Bob you had a presonus 16:4:2 if I need help with this I'll start a new thread, there is plenty a good tutorial on YouTube, but actually nothing on my RCF's, there is a guy alright demos the Subs but he's a Dj

maybe just maybe my Behringer B1500xp's are not suited to run with my RCF935A's maybe there not the best match Bob

[matt04ie]

Bob as for mics with good feedback rejection, you see my list of mics I have at the moment on my previous post, it's mainly sennheiser E945 or the Shure Beta58a, maybe you might have one you would reccomend I try judging from the 2 I like here, the Beyerdynamic M88tg was the one I used when I had my 5 piece band on the road, here I go head banging again LOL

[Hugh Robjohns]

... I had the venue hopping, when the manager comes to me and said what's that boom boom thumping sound it's very boomy at the back wall, honestly some people can rattle your cage,
I ended up dropping the volume completely on the subs...

I remember a gig I was mixing while at uni many decades ago which was a huge learning experience for me.

Live rock band on stage — typical late 70s style music. I had what I thought was a great sound. People were dancing... except the back of the room was empty. When I went back there to find out why I couldn't believe the bass build-up. It was visceral and very unpleasant!

It turned out we'd set up the console (as far back as our snake allowed!) in a big room null, so good bass to me was hugely excessive in many other locations.

I learned the importance of room acoustics and optimising the setup for the whole room, not just for me!

And yes, you've got to keep everyone happy – the band, the punters, and the venue. Cheese off the venue and you won't be allowed back. Sometimes compromises are necessary. Sometimes explanations and discussions are enough.

[matt04ie]

well said, that brings me to tonight's gig same venue and the manager was right, same set up same levels and yes it was quite boomy down the back, I was taken back really by this, it all sounded ok where I was, I'm beginning to think the Behringer 1500Xp were not a good buy or indeed a good match with the RCF's , I'll have to get a good warm bass and I'm not going to get this from 15's, but what to go for

[Bob Bickerton]

Not familiar with either of the speakers you use, but the Behringer specifications don’t look excessive. Sounds like you really need to set things up right, as has been said.

Considerations:

Is the crossover on the subs set-up correctly for a balanced frequency range?

Do you EQ the system for each venue you perform in and audition it from all around the room?

Bob

[Wonks]

Shall we start with the basics, just in case there’s something wrong there.

How are the RCFs and subs connected?

The typical method for a tops + sub method would be to run the left main output signal from the desk to the left sub, and take the filtered output signal from the sub to the left RCF. Likewise for the right main signal, the right sub and right RCF.

The other way would be to have two sets of outputs from the mixer, one for the RCFs and one for the subs, with a crossover set for around 100Hz in the mixer.

The RCFs don’t have any built-in crossover or high-pass filter setting, so when used with subs there needs to be a crossover external to the speaker.

The RCFs should be set to the linear mode.

The Behringer sub controls seem a bit strange to me. The high-pass filtered output for the tops is fixed at 100Hz and is a an 18dB/octave filter, whilst the low-pass filter for the sub itself is variable between 70Hz and 150Hz and is a 24dB/octave filter. So there’s room for a mismatch there.

In addition, there’s also a 10dB ‘bass boost’ feature for a high-Q bell EQ boost sweepable between 40Hz and 90Hz. This might sound impressive in a showroom, but eats into the general headroom for a balanced bass response and should be left off IMO. If necessary, boost the bass from the desk but with a less savage boost.

The sub’s low-pass filter should be set to 100Hz if using the filtered outputs to feed the RCFs. Given the high pass filter frequency is 100Hz, I find it annoying that Behringer only mark the start and end positions of the low-pass filter knob, with no intermediate frequency settings, not even the important 100Hz frequency. But it would appear that the 12 o’clock position is 100 Hz.

If using an external crossover, then set the low-pass frequency to 150Hz, so it’s as far out the way of the external crossover frequency as possible and to avoid a notch in the frequency response due to two low-pass filters with almost the same frequency setting operating in series.

Then it’s just a case of setting the volume controls on the RCFs and the subs so that they are balanced. The peak SPL outputs of the RCFs and the Behringers are similar (131dB vs 129dB), and the input sensitivities are quoted as being identical, so that shouldn’t be hard.

Does that sound any different to what you are doing with your basic PA set-up?

[Wonks]

And where do you position your subs? With a 100Hz crossover there won’t be any directional information in the sound, so you could put both subs in the middle rather than at the sides under the RCFs. Obviously this depends if there’s a stage or not, but this is supposed to give the most even coverage.

Plus two subs next to each other will give a small increase in volume (supposed to be 3dB) which means they can either be turned down slightly (so they don’t need to work so hard) or you get a bit more overall bass if you want it.