Short-scale fretless electric bass

[Wonks]

The K&K piezo disks are a lot smaller than the JJB ones, roughly a 10mm diameter vs 20mm, so 1/4 the surface area. Yet by the reports on the JJB, they are almost as loud as the K&K. Which implies that there’s something special about the K&K discs and they aren’t run-of-the-mill generic piezos. And I have a gut feel that the smaller the disk, the more accurate the sound due to less HF phase cancellations.

[shufflebeat]

A bit of AGF chat:

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/for ... p?t=243603

[shufflebeat]

I have heard good things about them though.

I've got half a plan to pick up a Vintage Satesboro and stick this JJB in it for backup, or possibly frontup if it turns out really well.

If I get round to it any time soon I'll give a shout so you can watch a myopic butcher at work.

[Wonks]

If I get round to it any time soon I'll give a shout so you can watch a myopic butcher at work.

If you’re short-sighted then you’re fine for close-up work. All the best!

[Sam Spoons]

A bit of AGF chat:

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/for ... p?t=243603

From that I conclude that there is little or no significant difference between K&K and JJB. I also suspect that, at best, they are hand selecting the elements in some way (probably by matching resistance?) so that they provide equal levels across a pickup set. I also note that JJB are now a little over half the price of the equivalent K&K where, when I bought mine, they were closer to ¼ the price.

[Albatross]

I buy these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114840228672 and put a blob of araldite to form a dome on the back to keep the wires secure and protect the disc. Then shield the top with copper foil tape that just contacts the underside and wraps up the 2" or so where I solder the longer connecting wire (also soldering the ground wire to the copper tape here). Then put shrink sleeve over down to the shoulder of the disc.

Then connect the three connecting wires together so the discs are in parallel to a mini jack. I made my own jig from a Poundland ciggie rolling machine which is made from a good strong thick clear plastic. The jig based on the K&K one kindly linked by Wonks in another thread Here And they get glued to the buttom of the bridge plate with superglue gel.

Mine go off to my own preamps based on the Tillman design https://www.till.com/articles/GuitarPreamp/ But one I did went to an existing commercial on-board pre that had been used for an under-saddle stick and that worked fine too.

They work really well, the best diy design I've tried over the years. I've done three of my guitars now, all great. Though if I do another one I'm going to put a fourth disc on the harness because (as noted in that manual) if the strutting is a bit tight on the top '"E" there can be some loss of output up there and that was true of one of the two 12-strings I did, It could always be left curled up neatly inside the guitar if not required.

Its a lot of f'ing about but Its dirt cheap and I'm a miser... good fun though.

I know this thread is about bass but as the issue came up her I thought I'd share.

[shufflebeat]

...I made my own jig from a Poundland ciggie rolling machine which is made from a good strong thick clear plastic.

...I'm a miser...

That's not really proper miserliness, I made mine from a Chinese takeaway tray.

Chopsticks also work really well for fitting endpin jack.

[Albatross]

[Aled Hughes]

No point starting a new thread…!

I’ve also pulled the trigger on a fretless Beatbass like Martin did. I had a slight fretless itch, slight short-scale itch and a slight semi-hollow itch, so this will hopefully scratch all three!

I fully expect having to do quite a bit of initial set-up work at this price, as Martin also found out. I’m also a bit wary of how difficult a short-scale unlined fretless will be to play in tune, given I’m fairly accustomed to my double bass…

Regardless, it’ll be fun I’m sure.

As touched upon earlier in this thread, I can see myself being tempted to install a piezo pickup under the bridge and see how that works with some upright bass IRs in my Helix… but that’s for another day (and a decent piezo system would cost half as much as the bass itself did!)

How are you getting on with your bass, Martin?

Aled

[Sam Spoons]

No point starting a new thread…!

I’ve also pulled the trigger on a fretless Beatbass like Martin did. I had a slight fretless itch, slight short-scale itch and a slight semi-hollow itch, so this will hopefully scratch all three!

Fiddle players manage to play in tune and their instrument has a scale length of noticeably less half of a short scale bass...

[Aled Hughes]

No point starting a new thread…!

I’ve also pulled the trigger on a fretless Beatbass like Martin did. I had a slight fretless itch, slight short-scale itch and a slight semi-hollow itch, so this will hopefully scratch all three!

Fiddle players manage to play in tune and their instrument has a scale length of noticeably less half of a short scale bass...

Yes, but it’s switching between upright and unlined short scale that worries me a bit.

And I might be guessing here, but isn’t a violin a sensible, ‘proper’, scale length for the notes it produces whereas a short-scale bass isn’t really? Ie. is the ‘margin of error’ smaller on a short-scale bass than a violin due to the lower register of the notes?

Out of interest, how many notes does a violin usually have between the open string and the highest fingerboard position?

[Wonks]

And I might be guessing here, but isn’t a violin a sensible, ‘proper’, scale length for the notes it produces whereas a short-scale bass isn’t really? Ie. is the ‘margin of error’ smaller on a short-scale bass than a violin due to the lower register of the notes?

No.

On any stringed instrument, half the scale length is the octave. It doesn’t matter about the register. So on a 4/4 13” scale length violin, the ‘margin for error’ is a lot smaller than on a 30” short scale bass. On the bass, the margin for error is physically around 230% larger than on the violin.

[Wonks]

But the ear is less sensitive in the bass regions than in the mid-rich sounds of the violin. So the ear may find it harder to tell if the note is in tune or not.

Practice makes perfect. Or maybe an instrument in many pieces.

[Aled Hughes]

And I might be guessing here, but isn’t a violin a sensible, ‘proper’, scale length for the notes it produces whereas a short-scale bass isn’t really? Ie. is the ‘margin of error’ smaller on a short-scale bass than a violin due to the lower register of the notes?

No.

On any stringed instrument, half the scale length is the octave. It doesn’t matter about the register. So on a 4/4 13” scale length violin, the ‘margin for error’ is a lot smaller than on a 30” short scale bass. On the bass, the margin for error is physically around 230% larger than on the violin.

Ah! Thanks.

Could still be a pain trying to switch between it and an upright though.

[Sam Spoons]

What Wonky said. I have a 40" scale EUB and playing in tune is much easier than on my violin (TBF not claiming to be better than mediocre on the bass and I'm much worse on the fiddle but timing on the bass is more of an issue than pitch accuracy).

[Wonks]

Yes, switching between scales on fretless instruments can be a pain until you get used to it.

Mentally you know the physical gaps differ, but it's much easier on a fretted instrument as you can see the frets.

[zenguitar]

Resist thinking about it and trust the flappy things on the side of your head.



Andy

[Aled Hughes]

Resist thinking about it and trust the flappy things on the side of your head.



Andy

Quite, but those useful flappy things can only tell me if a note is in tune or not after it has been played! It's only proper technique or blind luck than can make me hit the note correctly in the first place!

[Sam Spoons]

Why do you think fretless players slide up/down to notes such a lot?

One trick is to pick a harmonic as a reference which will get you 5th or 7th fret position without sounding out of tune and will be relatively quiet. Apart from that it's just practice. IME that is the answer to most technique questions.

I've also found that autotune is very useful to give you a helping hand when recording those instruments you can play 'a bit' but have not yet really mastered... Doesn't work as well playing live though...

[Aled Hughes]

Why do you think fretless players slide up/down to notes such a lot?

One trick is to pick a harmonic as a reference which will get you 5th or 7th fret position without sounding out of tune and will be relatively quiet. Apart from that it's just practice. IME that is the answer to most technique questions.

I've also found that autotune is very useful to give you a helping hand when recording those instruments you can play 'a bit' but have not yet really mastered... Doesn't work as well playing live though...

Thanks.
Just to be clear, it's not simply playing a fretless instrument in tune that bothers me - I know that's a matter of technique and practice, as I learned when I started playing upright bass. It's switching back and forth between an upright bass to a short-scale that has me a bit worried.

[BWC]

...I know that's a matter of technique and practice... It's switching back and forth ... that has me a bit worried.

Still just a matter of practice, even the switching back and forth part. You might be surprised by just how adaptable you can be. ...which is always fun.

[Sam Spoons]

Thanks.
Just to be clear, it's not simply playing a fretless instrument in tune that bothers me - I know that's a matter of technique and practice, as I learned when I started playing upright bass. It's switching back and forth between an upright bass to a short-scale that has me a bit worried.

sorry, preaching to the choir again

[Drew Stephenson]

I wouldn't worry about it. I switched between upright bass and cello with no impact - I was terrible at both.
But seriously, muscle memory is more complex and the difference between upright and horizontal neck positions will be enough to subconsciously switch your playing style.
I reckon.

[Sam Spoons]

The worst issue I had was swapping between my Les Paul and a Gordon Smith double cutaway, the scale length was the same but the strap button on the neck joint end meant the GS hung a couple of inches to my left compared to the LP. I have no problems swapping between a Strat and the LP but the GS was just too disorientating so I sold it.

[Drew Stephenson]

I have heard some folks say similar things about swapping between a Les Paul and an SG.
To which the obvious answer is 'sell the SG because they're fugly'.