USB-B v UCB-C for durability

[BJG145]

I came across a discussion on the merits of the different types of USB connectors and wondered what people thought. I don't like micro-USB on my gadgets, which has always seemed quite flimsy to me; USB-B is much more robust. USB-C is the new standard, but some people still prefer USB-B.

I don't know what the long-term durability of USB-C is like. Any thoughts, just from a physical point of view? Which would you prefer to see...?

[Wonks]

USB-B seems limited to USB 2 applications and so has a lower maximum power carrying capacity than USB-C, even if you don’t have the data carrying requirements of USB 3.x

So for bus-powered devices, the power requirements may decide that USB-C is the only option.

I must say that USB-C connections do seem more prone to pulling out than standard USB-B ones. I only have to move my PC a small bit and there’s a good chance my Thunderbolt lead to my AI needs replugging. I have tried OWC’s ‘ClingOn’ plastic supports for the connections, but the self-adhesive used to hold them to the case isn’t strong enough. There is a screw option on the devices which would be better, but only seems to be available on OWC cards.

[ef37a]

Wonks, there are two variations on the USB B connector for "3" speed. One is very similar to '2 B' but sort of 'stacked' and the other is a bloody useless flat thing with a kink in it. The latter has all the fragility of micro but also does not 'reach' into the port very far and is thus prone to puling out. I have three external drives, one has the stacked plug and is very secure, the other two that finnagalled flat thing.

I agree the C plug is not that secure but at least you can't plug it in the wrong way as peeps did with FussyWire! BTW I also have a couple of A to tiny USB for cameras and one that LOOKS the same but isn't. The plug is of almost 3x3mm square section. WTF it came from I do not know!

Dave.

[Folderol]

... and one that LOOKS the same but isn't. The plug is of almost 3x3mm square section. WTF it came from I do not know!

Dave.

I've got one of these for my positively ancient Olympus camera. A {cough} huge 3.2 megapixel

[Wonks]

Not knowing if USB -B did USB 3.x, I was going by Wikipedia, (though I didn't read the whole article so may have missed something).

Though the USB 3.x versions seem to be called USB-B Superspeed and aren't physically compatible with the older USB-B ports.

Presumably Ben was talking about the Superspeed versions of USB-B?

[ef37a]

Not knowing if USB -B did USB 3.x, I was going by Wikipedia, (though I didn't read the whole article so may have missed something).

Though the USB 3.x versions seem to be called USB-B Superspeed and aren't physically compatible with the older USB-B ports.

Presumably Ben was talking about the Superspeed versions of USB-B?

The whole thing is a cluster****. I am probably being thick but why did we ever need a "B" connector anyway? Ethernet and jack cables are the same both ends. XLR is only M&F so they link, makes no difference to electrical performance.

Dave.

[Wonks]

When it first came out, it certainly stopped people trying to link peripherals together, rather than back to a computer and wondering why they don't work.

USB messaging is all driven by the host (giving out tokens to allow a peripheral to respond), so unlike Ethernet, it needs a definite host to control the messaging and isn't fully independent peer-to-peer.

With USB-A and USB-B there's a clear host end and a peripheral end. People are far more used to the USB cable idea now, but when it was all new, it stopped a lot of misunderstanding.

[Sam Spoons]

Time for this again methinks...

[BJG145]

I'm building something with Teensy (micro-USB) and wondering whether to put a USB-B or USB-C panel mount on it. Having played around with both types again this morning, I think I'll go with USB-B; feels more robust and secure to me.

[tea for two]

UsbB cable on my M-Audio Oxygene midi kb and Zoom U44 interface I can bodge tape to make it trifle more secure although it still wiggles a little, there is approx 2mm of metal exposed from the usbB cable.

UsbC on my Audient iD4mk2 is a trifle more flush approx 1mm of metal showing from usbC cable little less wiggle than my usbB. On my Presonus Atom SQ even more flush approx 0.5mm metal showing from usbC cable even less wiggle. Butt usbC cable not as easy to bodge tape to interface to make it trifle more secure.

I'm building something with Teensy (micro-USB) and wondering whether to put a USB-B or USB-C panel mount on it. Having played around with both types again this morning, I think I'll go with USB-B; feels more robust and secure to me.

So I'd say usbB port for your Teensy, (unless requiring usbC 5Gbps 10Gbps 20Gbps transfer).

[ef37a]

When it first came out, it certainly stopped people trying to link peripherals together, rather than back to a computer and wondering why they don't work.

USB messaging is all driven by the host (giving out tokens to allow a peripheral to respond), so unlike Ethernet, it needs a definite host to control the messaging and isn't fully independent peer-to-peer.

With USB-A and USB-B there's a clear host end and a peripheral end. People are far more used to the USB cable idea now, but when it was all new, it stopped a lot of misunderstanding.

Hmm..They could have differentiated the 'ends' by colour and wiring regime? (RJ45 has the G/B swap) Still, water under a very big, very complex bridge now!

Dave.

[Drew Stephenson]

When it first came out, it certainly stopped people trying to link peripherals together, rather than back to a computer and wondering why they don't work.

USB messaging is all driven by the host (giving out tokens to allow a peripheral to respond), so unlike Ethernet, it needs a definite host to control the messaging and isn't fully independent peer-to-peer.

With USB-A and USB-B there's a clear host end and a peripheral end. People are far more used to the USB cable idea now, but when it was all new, it stopped a lot of misunderstanding.

Hmm..They could have differentiated the 'ends' by colour and wiring regime? (RJ45 has the G/B swap) Still, water under a very big, very complex bridge now!

Dave.

They did try to. USB1 is black, 2 is white, 3 is blue, 3.2 (I think) is green.
Sadly very few manufacturers (especially of cables) stuck to it.

[BJG145]

...what Dave's saying, though, is that if the physical difference between USB-A and USB-B was only made to differentiate the host from the slave, it would have made more sense to colour the different ends instead. There seems to be an unnecessary proliferation of different USB types, which indicates that it wasn't properly thought out in the first place. Or the second. USB-A is always the wrong way round, Micro-USB breaks, etc.

I'm not blown away by USB-C either. It only seems to insert about 1mm on one of my controllers, and the rest sticks out.

[Wonks]

I think you’ve misunderstood the question, Drew. Not differentiating the USB 1x, 2x and 3x types on USB A ports, but differentiating what is a host device and what is a peripheral device.

E.g. almost all new keyboards/synths have USB ports, but only a small number can actually act as a host as well for connecting other keyboards to. So if you had two (or more) USB-C ports on a keyboard/synth you’d need clear markings as to what port went to your computer and which went off to other keyboards. But if you had a USB-B port for the computer connection and USB-A or USB-C port(s) off to other synths, then you are less likely to get it wrong when setting up quickly (possibly on a dark stage) for a gig (even if you didn’t connect to a computer for the gig).

[ef37a]

I think you’ve misunderstood the question, Drew. Not differentiating the USB 1x, 2x and 3x types on USB A ports, but differentiating what is a host device and what is a peripheral device.

E.g. almost all new keyboards/synths have USB ports, but only a small number can actually act as a host as well for connecting other keyboards to. So if you had two (or more) USB-C ports on a keyboard/synth you’d need clear markings as to what port went to your computer and which went off to other keyboards. But if you had a USB-B port for the computer connection and USB-A or USB-C port(s) off to other synths, then you are less likely to get it wrong when setting up quickly (possibly on a dark stage) for a gig (even if you didn’t connect to a computer for the gig).

Well yes, I get that but my very limited understanding of the computer industry is that they never give a moment's thought to the needs of musicians?

Also..."dark stage"? Synth peeps could put a LED behind each port. If any of them are looking in you can have that one for free!

Dave.

[Wonks]

LEDs behind ports are more likely to make it even harder to see what's what. You might see the port OK but the contrast would be even greater when looking at the rear so make it much harder to read any writing on the ports.

Think of looking at car headlights in the dark. You can see the shape of the headlights but you are very unlikely to guess the shape of the car or its colour.

Hard enough when you've got say 8+ jack outputs and expression inputs on the rear to know which jack is which if you can't read the writing.

An LED strip on the outside at the back with the light pointing down at the rear panel would be better IMO, especially if it could be turned off after use. But it would probably end up too fragile for life on the road unless designed in from the start as part of an extending ledge at the top rear.

But I doubt it would ever happen.

[BigRedX]

It really depends on what the device is and how it's being used as to what USB connection is the least worst. I'll tolerate just about anything for changers and static equipment that never leaves the office or studio and is rarely moved about, although I'll avoid the mini and micro versions as far as possible.

The big problem I have is that none of the plugs are properly lockable when fitted to the sockets. USB B seems to slightly better in that it is a bit harder to pull out than the other kinds. Everything else just appears to be held in place by friction. Also for some connections the cable is too inflexible and puts too much strain on the plug which can cause it to pop out. Unfortunately the only solution to this appears to be fit flimsy cables which can be even worse.

For live use I would prefer not to even see a USB connector. In my current live rig I have 6 USB connections. Two have the plugs hot-glued into place. The others are cable-tied in place so the device can be removed but it is nearly impossible to disconnect the plugs without really trying. The final pair are for joining an external foot switch to the rest of the gear and for that I have 2 spare cables that get carried in my leads bag for WHEN the one I am currently using stops working.

[Drew Stephenson]

I think you’ve misunderstood the question, Drew. Not differentiating the USB 1x, 2x and 3x types on USB A ports, but differentiating what is a host device and what is a peripheral device.

Sorry, my bad!

[BJG145]

The big problem I have is that none of the plugs are properly lockable when fitted to the sockets. USB B seems to slightly better in that it is a bit harder to pull out than the other kinds. Everything else just appears to be held in place by friction.

Completely agree. I've rarely seen anything that's properly secure on a MIDI controller, even those you might be wearing and wandering around with onstage. The only ones that do have expensive proprietary cables. (MIDI DIN is waaay more secure than any of this USB sh!te, but a lot of controllers fob you off with micro-USB, or USB-B at best.)

I don't know why they didn't stick with RJ45 or some variant. The USB stuff often ends up wearing loose.

[ef37a]

LEDs behind ports are more likely to make it even harder to see what's what. You might see the port OK but the contrast would be even greater when looking at the rear so make it much harder to read any writing on the ports.

Think of looking at car headlights in the dark. You can see the shape of the headlights but you are very unlikely to guess the shape of the car or its colour.

Hard enough when you've got say 8+ jack outputs and expression inputs on the rear to know which jack is which if you can't read the writing.

An LED strip on the outside at the back with the light pointing down at the rear panel would be better IMO, especially if it could be turned off after use. But it would probably end up too fragile for life on the road unless designed in from the start as part of an extending ledge at the top rear.

But I doubt it would ever happen.

We now have differently coloured LEDs and the resistor code!
I was really just thinking about finding a hole in the dark (as the actress....)

Dave

[Wonks]

Yes, but the right hole!

[ef37a]

Err? Jus' a cotton pickin! We shall soon end up (no pun...) with C to C! Might as well have started with A to A!

And yes to RJ45 for almost everything. The plugs can stand my size 11s a couple of times unlike DIN and USB. They are universally available, cable is cheap. Yes the crimp tool is a few bob but after that a doddle.

Dave.

[Sam Spoons]

The USB-B sockets on both my X32 X-USB cards are very loose and feel very flimsy. The 'remote' socket (also USB-A) on the back panel of the desk is fine.

[Wonks]

Behringer penny pinching? I haven’t noticed issues with USB-B sockets in things like printers and scanners and my old MIDI keyboard.

But I do recognise that the socket implementation and its rigidity can vary from instance to instance.

[ef37a]

Behringer penny pinching? I haven’t noticed issues with USB-B sockets in things like printers and scanners and my old MIDI keyboard.

But I do recognise that the socket implementation and its rigidity can vary from instance to instance.

The USB B port on my NI KA6 is much tighter than any I have met on other kit and it states in the book "high specification USB port". Did not know there was a choice!

But 'tolerances' seem to be much worse these days. I first encountered a stuck XLR plug about 5 years ago. It was from Maplin but was stuck in a very (maybe 30yrs!) old RS socket. Gas pliers save the day.
Since then I have read many reports of over tight XLRs and some that just would not shift. I had not had such a problem in the proceeding 50 years. Any other old 'uns like to chip in?

Dave.