Is this what will literally completely devalue song-writing, engineering, mixing, mastering?

[merlyn]

The reason I brought up other applications of neural networks is to show that there is no intelligence involved.

Back in the Victorian era folks who didn't understand clockwork (the tech of the time) thought clockwork automata were alive. It seems remarkably ignorant looking back.

[Drew Stephenson]

It’s quite common for the first attempts to implement a new technology to fail, and later attempts to work.

Indeed, look at how dangerous air travel used to be but we accepted those risks for the benefits. It's a weird thing that so much of human progress relies on humans being terrible at assessing risk.

[RichardT]

The reason I brought up other applications of neural networks is to show that there is no intelligence involved.

Back in the Victorian era folks who didn't understand clockwork (the tech of the time) thought clockwork automata were alive. It seems remarkably ignorant looking back.

This is an interesting question. We don’t really have an understanding of human intelligence and consciousness, so it’s even harder to define when a machine is intelligent and conscious.

We are also subject to believing things a computer can do are by definition not intelligent, because we know how computers work.

[BigRedX]

Oracle tried to push their ‘network computers’ many years ago, and they failed, but now we have cloud computing everywhere.

But only for lightweight data usage. I wouldn't expect to be able to run my DAW or even any print graphics form files stored on the cloud.

[OneWorld]

Benn Jordan did an interesting video on driverless cars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DOd4RLNeT4
Apparently crash data shows fully autonomous vehicles have a 10x higher accident rate than humans.

As for China, the CCP cares little for it's population so if a few people die in the name of 'progress'...

"As for China, the CCP cares little for it's population so if a few people die in the name of 'progress'..."

I am quite3 surprised you have been allowed to make this comment because it suggests a somewhat biased and un-substantiated claim.

Considering China has the same life expectancy as any other developed country, although China is still developing
. I am a person interested in world affairs and read on the subject quite extensively as well as having worked and travelled extensively in countries that are subject to our ill informed polemic and demonisation.

In the interests of equanimity, could you substantiate your claims of the CCP caring little for it's population, considering in a generation they have brought the country from wretched poverty and famine, to the second largest economy in the world, with over 650 million lifted out of poverty and now prospering quite substantially, and with the government committed to raising the living standards of the rest of the populace out of poverty.

I quote one CHinese foreign minister when faced with criticism such as yours from and English Foreign Minister, and he said"Have you ever tried to feed 1,4 billion people?" and he went on to say "Yes we have made mistakes and we are learning, your (the UK) Industrial Revolution, went from fiefdom to industrialization took 100+ years, we have done in in less than 50, so gives us a break, we'll do things in our own time and manner"

[SafeandSound Mastering]

I am listening to and watching some of my favourite music from multiple decades passed which is very wide ranging, all over place in decades and genres. AI reminds me of how truly amazing we humans being are.

[merlyn]

Some songs i heard are actually BETTER than anything ive hear in a long time,

That, I believe.

That's the funniest thing I've read in a while.

[BWC]

As for China, the CCP cares little for it's population so if a few people die in the name of 'progress'...

I am quite3 surprised you have been allowed to make this comment because it suggests a somewhat biased and un-substantiated claim.

...because only you are allowed to make biased and unsubstantiated (and often, ignorant and hateful) claims? Oh, and I'm pretty sure the CCP's history of human rights abuses (among other nastiness) is well-documented.

"...we'll do things in our own time and manner"

...regardless of the harm it does to anyone else, apparently. Making "progress" quickly doesn't justify the means by which they've done it.

[BWC]

That's the funniest thing I've read in a while.

[RichardT]

As for China, the CCP cares little for it's population so if a few people die in the name of 'progress'...

I am quite3 surprised you have been allowed to make this comment because it suggests a somewhat biased and un-substantiated claim.

...because only you are allowed to make biased and unsubstantiated (and often, ignorant and hateful) claims? Oh, and I'm pretty sure the CCP's history of human rights abuses (among other nastiness) is well-documented.

"...we'll do things in our own time and manner"

...regardless of the harm it does to anyone else, apparently. Making "progress" quickly doesn't justify the means by which they've done it.

Everyone and everything is monitored closely in China. There is no freedom of speech. Minorities are shipped off to prison camps. I agree with you BWC.

It’s necessary to blind yourself to some evil things to be an apologist for China.

[Folderol]

Everyone and everything is monitored closely in China. There is no freedom of speech. Minorities are shipped off to prison camps. I agree with you BWC.

It’s necessary to blind yourself to some evil things to be an apologist for China.

Why single out China? In fact, can you name any major country that isn't engaged in some pretty evil practices? ... and some quite small countries too.
I find the carefully hidden abuses in some places to be of more concern.

There's that ancient saying:
Before offering to cast out the splinter from your neighbour's eye, first remove the plank from your own.

P.S.
We are now miles off the original topic so I apologise for adding to the noise

[OneWorld]

As for China, the CCP cares little for it's population so if a few people die in the name of 'progress'...

I am quite3 surprised you have been allowed to make this comment because it suggests a somewhat biased and un-substantiated claim.

...because only you are allowed to make biased and unsubstantiated (and often, ignorant and hateful) claims? Oh, and I'm pretty sure the CCP's history of human rights abuses (among other nastiness) is well-documented.

"...we'll do things in our own time and manner"

...regardless of the harm it does to anyone else, apparently. Making "progress" quickly doesn't justify the means by which they've done it.

And what harm would that be, something of the magnitude of Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, Afghanistan etc go figure.

Anyway this is not a political discussion forum, but I didn't introduce that element into the thread but mere asked for clarification in the form of substantiated claims relating to an assertion made here that is unsubstantiated.

In other words "Those in glass houses......" you can work the rest out

My point being, if one is to make outrageouos claims in a forum then they should substantiate that claim with verifiable and validated subjective figures from trusted sources that have been shown to take an unbiased perspective.

[OneWorld]

Everyone and everything is monitored closely in China. There is no freedom of speech. Minorities are shipped off to prison camps. I agree with you BWC.

It’s necessary to blind yourself to some evil things to be an apologist for China.

Why single out China? In fact, can you name any major country that isn't engaged in some pretty evil practices? ... and some quite small countries too.
I find the carefully hidden abuses in some places to be of more concern.

There's that ancient saying:
Before offering to cast out the splinter from your neighbour's eye, first remove the plank from your own.

P.S.
We are now miles off the original topic so I apologise for adding to the noise

Absolutely bang spot on back of the net, you deserve a gong for a measured and succinct point.

I remain puzzled as to why the mention of Chinese technology whould unleash a torrent of Sinophobia, I happen to like Chow Mein, that gives rise to litany of irrational slurs.

And as you say, miles off topic, this is a music forum afterall, and surely even the most commited haters have to acknowledge that having been fortunate enough to have been given the gift of music we are of a community that crosses borders, looks for harmony not conflict, is all embracing and thrives on co-operation and shuns isolation, we tolerate 'accidentals' but devote our efforts to seeking resolution, the lost chord. To take a hostile perspective of a country makes me despair. Until I listen to music from whatever country and think - there's always hope because music, possibly more than most, is an exemplar of tolerance, understanding and respect.

If people could pick up guitars instead of guns what a better world it would be. I too apologise about the 'noise' but after all, before we whole-heartedly adopt the psychology of AI and its manifestations, should we not make human psychology more harmonious.

By pure coincidence, I am listening at the moment to a broadcast on Radio 3 where they are happily wandering from one country to the next and the music played is unsurprisingly novel, interesting, bizarre, eccentric, slushy etc. And a ballad I am listening to at the moment, from a certain country in the Far East, a name I dare not mention because the country is a pariah, but the music being played, has just been described as a 'Sorcery of Melodic Magic' had I been the sort of person that universally dismisses all aspects of another country/area of the world, I would be musically and culturally impoverished. Well I am not going to let that happen despite being accused of being 'blind' OK 'blind' I might be, but not unhearing of a story or circumstance, no matter where in the world it comes from.

As a slight aside, more 'noise' A commentator on Radio 3 is challenging some claims made by the founder of Spotify, someone called 'Eck'? (I missed the name) the commentator o the radio says 'content providers' such as Spotify should not refer to music as 'content' it is not content but music, and says "You don't turn on a tap and get music, things aren't as simple as that............yes you might be able to refer to AI generated music - (MusAIc) but music is more than ordered noise, it has cultural, emotive and passionate elements, so it could be said that it depriciates the value of music to refer to it as simple 'content' "

And to the person who accused me of being 'blind' using that slur, could also be turned back on the person uttering the word, the logical argument A = B can also be expressed as IF A = B, then it follows that B = A, well that point is put more prosaically using the 'Splinter' example.

So yes OK, I might be 'blind' but I don't have wax in my ears I might be an aspiring Stevie Wonder but at least I am no Beethoven!

[RichardT]

Everyone and everything is monitored closely in China. There is no freedom of speech. Minorities are shipped off to prison camps. I agree with you BWC.

It’s necessary to blind yourself to some evil things to be an apologist for China.

Why single out China? In fact, can you name any major country that isn't engaged in some pretty evil practices? ... and some quite small countries too.
I find the carefully hidden abuses in some places to be of more concern.

There's that ancient saying:
Before offering to cast out the splinter from your neighbour's eye, first remove the plank from your own.

P.S.
We are now miles off the original topic so I apologise for adding to the noise

I'm not singling out China - it just happened to be a topic of conversation. And if you think the UK, for example, is comparable to China in this way, then we'll have to disagree!

[OneWorld]

Everyone and everything is monitored closely in China. There is no freedom of speech. Minorities are shipped off to prison camps. I agree with you BWC.

It’s necessary to blind yourself to some evil things to be an apologist for China.

Why single out China? In fact, can you name any major country that isn't engaged in some pretty evil practices? ... and some quite small countries too.
I find the carefully hidden abuses in some places to be of more concern.

There's that ancient saying:
Before offering to cast out the splinter from your neighbour's eye, first remove the plank from your own.

P.S.
We are now miles off the original topic so I apologise for adding to the noise

I'm not singling out China - it just happened to be a topic of conversation. And if you think the UK, for example, is comparable to China in this way, then we'll have to disagree!

China was initialy mentioned by myself. Not with regard to geo-politics, but emerging technology, and discourse relating to technology cannot be 'blind' to the emergence of China and their increasingly prominent influence i the field of technology. If you would like to pursue a debate on the geo-politics we'll have to find another time and place, where I would be more than happy to listen to your assertions and claims regarding the country

But I take umbridge at the 'blind' accusation. Consider this........

Vietnam, Cambodia, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Iraq, Afghanistan....et al

Are you familiar with the phrase "The Blind Leading the Blind?'

Yes I might be 'blind' but my ears aren't full of wax. I am no Stevie Wonder but no Beethoven either

Like it or not, the are snapping at the heels of the West, and why shouldn't they, if we in the West can be prosperous, why can't the rest of the world? And anyone not factoring in China to any discussion relating to technology is living in denial, as opposed to taking the pragmatic view and familiarising ourselves with their progress, methods, successes, failures and problem solving - 52% of new patents being granted in the world are submitted by.....China!. SO we can either sit on the sidelines sniping and demionizing or making ourselves aware and fully informed and who knows, we might co-operatively get to find a cure for cancer!

No 'Freedom of Speech' ? I simply have to rebutt that claim for the following reasons....

1. I have been to China for extended periods (and many surprises came my way) Whilst in China, in the hotel, I could watch/listen to LBC, BBC, YouTube, I suppose you could take the conspiracist's perspective and claim the CCP was monitoring me. My nephew had a 50% share in a business in China for 11 years, his biggest problem as it happens was getting the workers "Off their damn phones and getting some work done!!!! and the instant the clock touched 5:00pm they scarpered out the office like cockroaches (unfortunate term I know) when the light was turned on"

2. I can go on the internet, here at home in the UK, and browse my way to legions of Chinese News Media, covering all maner of topics.

3. In the UK OFCOM has banned the Chinese equivalent of the BBC

Ever heard of the phrase "The Kettle Calling the Pot Black?"

In that fabled book by the Chinese "The Art of War" one is advised to "Know Thine Enemy" might be an idea to take a leaf out of their book

[OneWorld]

Richard, if you would like to justify your prejudices I am happy to go to whatever forum you suggest. Of course we could PM each other but I prefer dialogue to be open, transparent and as such open to scrutiny by other contibutors and peers. I don't use Facebook or WhatsApp though

[RichardT]

Richard, if you would like to justify your prejudices I am happy to go to whatever forum you suggest. Of course we could PM each other but I prefer dialogue to be open, transparent and as such open to scrutiny by other contibutors and peers. I don't use Facebook or WhatsApp though

No, sorry. I don’t see the point. You know, I’m sure, there is a mountain of evidence to support my statements from all sorts of human rights bodies.

[merlyn]

We can say that China is not a democracy. The Chinese state/authorities/CCP whatever you want to call it put an end to democracy in Tiananmen Square in 1989. It doesn't have to be a democracy of course, but we do have to realise it's a different setup. The CCP does imprison people for criticising the government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China

The West isn't great either, but that doesn't make China the goodies. There's four possibilities :

US bad, China good
US good, China bad
US good, China good
US bad, China bad

It's not the full picture, but I think we're looking at the fourth one.

[OneWorld]

Richard, if you would like to justify your prejudices I am happy to go to whatever forum you suggest. Of course we could PM each other but I prefer dialogue to be open, transparent and as such open to scrutiny by other contibutors and peers. I don't use Facebook or WhatsApp though

No, sorry. I don’t see the point. You know, I’m sure, there is a mountain of evidence to support my statements from all sorts of human rights bodies.

The point is before making such a comment in fairness to those at the sharp end of your pithy comments deserve a modicum of truth, I have invited you to substantiate your claims an d because this is a music forum and not a Hyde Park Speaker's Corner suggest "we go outside and sort this out" because it is disrespectful to other users of the forum who expect to come here and read about tecgnical issues, not someone's take on the state of the world as we know it, and don't know it

[OneWorld]

We can say that China is not a democracy. The Chinese state/authorities/CCP whatever you want to call it put an end to democracy in Tiananmen Square in 1989. It doesn't have to be a democracy of course, but we do have to realise it's a different setup. The CCP does imprison people for criticising the government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China

The West isn't great either, but that doesn't make China the goodies. There's four possibilities :

US bad, China good
US good, China bad
US good, China good
US bad, China bad

It's not the full picture, but I think we're looking at the fourth one.

I still cannot understand, what has this got to do with the part China plays in developing technology, can I kindly ask that we discuss this in a forum appropriate to the topic? And I assure you I have an abundance of content and validated contentn open to scrutiny from whomsoever you choose to throw at me, because I have studied, researched and lived in countries that we demonize, and don't just take my word for it, we don't come out of it too well, and leads me to the conclusion the world would be a better place if some truths were told, even uncomfortable ones. But before I begin mny lecture, please direct me to a forum of your choosing set up for the sole purpose of politics.

How on earth can we sort the world out if we can't even pick the right forum?

[steveman]

My apologies for stirring up this hornet's nest. My comment was certainly not intended to be sinophobic, it was specifically intended to be critical of the CCP, not the chinese people.
There's plenty more I could say on the subject but that's taking us away from the topic.

Back on topic regarding 'AI' or 'ML' in music. This is from another forum on the same subject.
It's a reply from Nick Cave to a question regarding a songwriter using ChatGPT to help lyric writing...

Dear Leon and Charlie,

In the story of the creation, God makes the world, and everything in it, in six days. On the seventh day he rests. The day of rest is significant because it suggests that the creation required a certain effort on God’s part, that some form of artistic struggle had taken place. This struggle is the validating impulse that gives God’s world its intrinsic meaning. The world becomes more than just an object full of other objects, rather it is imbued with the vital spirit, the pneuma, of its creator.

ChatGPT rejects any notions of creative struggle, that our endeavours animate and nurture our lives giving them depth and meaning. It rejects that there is a collective, essential and unconscious human spirit underpinning our existence, connecting us all through our mutual striving.

ChatGPT is fast-tracking the commodification of the human spirit by mechanising the imagination. It renders our participation in the act of creation as valueless and unnecessary. That ‘songwriter ‘you were talking to, Leon, who is using ChatGPT to write ‘his’ lyrics because it is ‘faster and easier ,’is participating in this erosion of the world’s soul and the spirit of humanity itself and, to put it politely, should f*** desist if he wants to continue calling himself a songwriter.

ChatGPT’s intent is to eliminate the process of creation and its attendant challenges, viewing it as nothing more than a time-wasting inconvenience that stands in the way of the commodity itself. Why strive?, it contends. Why bother with the artistic process and its accompanying trials? Why shouldn’t we make it ‘faster and easier?’

When the God of the Bible looked upon what He had created, He did so with a sense of accomplishment and saw that ‘it was good‘. ‘It was good ‘because it required something of His own self, and His struggle imbued creation with a moral imperative, in short love. Charlie, even though the creative act requires considerable effort, in the end you will be contributing to the vast network of love that supports human existence. There are all sorts of temptations in this world that will eat away at your creative spirit, but none more fiendish than that boundless machine of artistic demoralisation, ChatGPT.

As humans, we so often feel helpless in our own smallness, yet still we find the resilience to do and make beautiful things, and this is where the meaning of life resides. Nature reminds us of this constantly. The world is often cast as a purely malignant place, but still the joy of creation exerts itself, and as the sun rises upon the struggle of the day, the Great Crested Grebe dances upon the water. It is our striving that becomes the very essence of meaning. This impulse – the creative dance – that is now being so cynically undermined, must be defended at all costs, and just as we would fight any existential evil, we should fight it tooth and nail, for we are fighting for the very soul of the world.
Love, Nick

Original here https://www.theredhandfiles.com/chatgpt ... nd-easier/

[zenguitar]

OK.

That's it. I've had enough of this continued nonsense that has left this topic utterly derailed.

Too many contributions that reek of wilful misunderstanding and misrepresentation and where every hint of a proffered olive branch has been knocked back.

It's locked.

Andy