Laptop vs. DAWless for live use: is it just me, or...?

[Zax Zaxx]

Having started with hardware instruments for live performance, then migrated to a laptop with all the usual suspects by way of software (Ableton, VSTs, blah blah...) I've drifted back to hardware again and have decided to put up with lugging around a case full of boxes and keeping Decksaver in business. This just seemed intuitive at the time, but having since tried to explain my reasoning to myself I'm pretty sure it's because however powerful and sophisticated the laptop setup became it still sounded oddly bland to me. I've been wondering whether this is because regardless of your chosen software and however whizzy your computer's performance, every actual sound you hear is produced by your chose audio interface, so whatever mixture of cool stuff goes in at one end, what you hear at the other is essentially a Scarlett, or whatever. In contrast, a bunch of different synths linked via MIDI and mixed at the audio stage will present as many different output characteristics as there are boxes, sounding much more engaging as a result. Anyone else ever got this vibe? Or should I just get out more?

[muzines]

I'm pretty sure it's because however powerful and sophisticated the laptop setup became it still sounded oddly bland to me.

Did it actually *sound* bland (to the audience), or did it just *feel* bland performing?

They are two different things, with different solutions...

[Zax Zaxx]

'...it still sounded oddly bland to me'

As stated in my original post. I found it easy enough to de-bland the performance process (using a Vestax VCM-600 with AudioMulch was a good cure for the fidgets!) but I think that actually added to my disappointment about how dull the results seemed (even when using Mulch, which is cheerfully bonkers even on a bad day).

[Dave Rowles]

The thing that gets me when performing through a laptop/DAW is the latency. I get my latency down as low as possible, but it's still there, and I can feel it. I've used laptop solutions for electronic drums and guitar amp sims/pedals and even getting the latency down below the sub 2ms mark it still feels like I've not got the immediacy of a non laptop solution.

This is probably entirely psychological once it gets down to 2ms, but give me a good amp, or a real kit any day...even if it's a higher end electronic one.

That said, as an engineer, I can 99% guarantee that this is all about your feel and vibe, and the audience will notice no difference sonically.

[ef37a]

Re "bland" virtual instruments? My son 'builds' musical pieces for his own amusement, one movement of a Brandenburg for instance. He tells me that if he uses the same 'instrument' for several notes it sounds artificial and so he will search for a violin C from one free site then an E flat from another and so on.

How you would adapt that to a live performance I have no idea!

Dave.

[Zax Zaxx]

That said, as an engineer, I can 99% guarantee that this is all about your feel and vibe, and the audience will notice no difference sonically.

I understand your contention, but as many elements of my performances are improvised I'd maintain that what they'd get to hear is more interesting when I'm performing DAWless because I'm more inspired/motivated. The difference is artistic rather than sonic. And now I'll just pull my head out from where I stuffed it...

[Zax Zaxx]

How you would adapt that to a live performance I have no idea!

Dave.

Lots and lots of individual samples (maybe loaded into Soundplant or something) or a lovingly restored Mellotron with a custom set of tapes (the latter probably followed by a nervous breakdown ).

[ef37a]

How you would adapt that to a live performance I have no idea!

Dave.

Lots and lots of individual samples (maybe loaded into Soundplant or something) or a lovingly restored Mellotron with a custom set of tapes (the latter probably followed by a nervous breakdown ).

I shall have a look at Soundplant, thanks Zax.

Dave.

[resistorman]

It depends on the synth for me, be it analog, digital, or plugin. The digital Hydrasynth sounds great to me, much better than the Minilogue xd and more versatile than the Cobalt 8, but the miniscule Lemondrop surprisingly often has a more exciting and musical sound than all of them in my ears. On my Mac Air, Plasmonic can give me chills and Pigments is a ton of fun, but most synths on the iPad Pro don't feel like they have depth, both devices using the same interface. The Roland Integra seems to be all surface, while a JX-3P or Oberheim Matrix 6 define blandness to me. The Arturia V collection is a total blast to just pick random synths and patches and just play, very satisfying, and I've barely started with it.

[Zax Zaxx]

I shall have a look at Soundplant, thanks Zax.

Dave.

Not sure how seriously anyone takes it, but I've found it quite fun for live performance by running it on an old mini netbook (an Asus Eee PC or Inspiron 910 - yes, they actually have a use!) which then becomes a handy, cheap and no-nonsense sample player of the kind no one can find (unless they settle for the Akai MPX8, which is awful at all levels). Great for dropping cryptic vocal samples into live techno ('Unglaublich Holstenpils' etc.) which is of course required by law.

https://soundplant.org/

[Zax Zaxx]

It depends on the synth for me...

I wouldn't argue with the virtues of an individual soft synth/plugin/whatever. What I am suggesting is that whatever you're using, what you're actually hearing is this:



(by way of example - this is a Focusrite).

Or, imagine all your soft synths as patch banks on a single instrument, all sharing a single audio output stage, which is the above. Looked at from a hardware perspective, that's what they amount to.

[zenguitar]

Zax Zaxx,

please take a little care with your posts. I've had to fix your quotes to maintain clarity in three posts this afternoon.

Thanks

Andy

[Zax Zaxx]

Oh, sorry. Can you tell me exactly what I was doing wrong?

[zenguitar]

Oh, sorry. Can you tell me exactly what I was doing wrong?

When you quote from someone's post there is one tag at the beginning of the quote and another at the end.

In each case you have removed one of these tags. These tags can be spotted as they are enclosed by square brackets [ ].

When you next post with a quote take a few moments to look for these tags so you can recognise them. You can't see them in the final post, but they are easily seen in the text field when you are writing a post.



Andy

[Sam Spoons]

The important thing is to add your own text outside of the

-

tags. If you type your comments immediately after the quoted text they will fall inside the quotes. I presume you are using the quotes button so you would have to reposition the cursor before typing for that to happen.

[Arpangel]

When using a laptop live, you look boring, and it feels boring, simple as that.
When I see a band live, or a solo artist, it’s all about movement, how they move, and interact with their instruments, I find this extremely interesting, that’s what playing live is all about, it’s a live "performance" both physically, and musically.
Keep the office off the stage.

[BWC]

A laptop with strap pins?

[sonics]

I wouldn't argue with the virtues of an individual soft synth/plugin/whatever. What I am suggesting is that whatever you're using, what you're actually hearing is this:

(by way of example - this is a Focusrite).

I think you have this the wrong way around. The interface is what you are not hearing. Analog gear in combination will have all sorts of output stages, plus the effect of the mixer in use. However, I would think that most of the effect is likely to be psychological. I suppose that the outputs from the two rigs cannot be compared anyway, since they are completely different.

[Zax Zaxx]

I wouldn't argue with the virtues of an individual soft synth/plugin/whatever. What I am suggesting is that whatever you're using, what you're actually hearing is this:

(by way of example - this is a Focusrite).

I think you have this the wrong way around. The interface is what you are not hearing. Analog gear in combination will have all sorts of output stages, plus the effect of the mixer in use. However, I would think that most of the effect is likely to be psychological. I suppose that the outputs from the two rigs cannot be compared anyway, since they are completely different.

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm saying exactly what you're saying about analog - and indeed hardware digital - synths having different output stages, hence sounding more interesting. The individual mixer channels will all have different settings (probably), thus adding further variables. None of this applies when the only actual audio element is the output stage of an interface that's basically being fed a cocktail of digital data. The differences in output from these two types of rigs is exactly what led me to have a preference.

[Zax Zaxx]

When using a laptop live, you look boring, and it feels boring, simple as that.
When I see a band live, or a solo artist, it’s all about movement, how they move, and interact with their instruments, I find this extremely interesting, that’s what playing live is all about, it’s a live "performance" both physically, and musically.
Keep the office off the stage.

I don't dislike being in the audience for laptop performances as there can be some interesting and subtle body language going on - a raised eyebrow here, pursed lips and a frown there etc. - which I find quite entertaining in a gentle sort of way. Of course this only works with certain kinds of music at certain kinds of (usually small) gigs. I remember one such laptop set I did which went particularly well, to the extent that when it ended an audience member asked me what I'd been smiling at! I think she thought I'd had some good news in an email or something!

[Zax Zaxx]

Oh, sorry. Can you tell me exactly what I was doing wrong?

When you quote from someone's post there is one tag at the beginning of the quote and another at the end.

In each case you have removed one of these tags. These tags can be spotted as they are enclosed by square brackets [ ].

When you next post with a quote take a few moments to look for these tags so you can recognise them. You can't see them in the final post, but they are easily seen in the text field when you are writing a post.



Andy

OK, got it.

[zenguitar]

[sonics]

None of this applies when the only actual audio element is the output stage of an interface that's basically being fed a cocktail of digital data.

That analog mixture and all those that are sonic elements can be replicated in the digital domain, though. If you want any analog-style distortions there is a plugin to do it (and much more). You could even modulate those elements over time; your first set could play through a virtual Neve and 1970s processing, with your second through an old EMI console and 1960s effects, for example! You'll get more variation and possibilities than one analog setup could ever provide. Perhaps explore that avenue? Take some emery paper to the digital shine.

[BigRedX]

I think what gear works best very much depends on the genre of the music and the type of performance you want to put on.

I use a laptop (running Logic) on stage, but it is essentially our drummer and second synth player, and acts mostly as a playback device with just some user interaction. Because of this I try and tuck it away on stage, so that while it can still be seen it's not in any way dominating the human performers, and is controller by footswitches rather than from the computer itself.

The vibe is completely down to my abilities as a programmer both in terms of sounds and feel, although it helps that we have a very visual and emotive front person for the band.

[The Elf]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using a laptop on stage. What *can* be wrong is tying yourself to it during performance - and there's no need to do that. I use a laptop every time I play live. It just gets on with it job and it lets me get on with mine.

On the other hand I've seen plenty of acts gazing at their modular system for an hour...

It's not about what you use, it's what you do with it.