Please help - I need a high quality flat-frequency, detailed, inexpensive IEM

[The Elf]

if DSP is improving the sonics of speakers, why not do same for headphones?

You're placing blind faith in DSP here. What is 'improving' speakers? There are acoustic problems that DSP simply cannot address - throwing an EQ-based solution at a time-based problem, for example. How does the DSP know that you're in an L-shaped room, with one speaker against a wall?

And some of us are not enamoured of digital trickery in our speakers *or* headphones.

Millions of great mixes have been made without DSP propping up our headphones and speakers.

[Drew Stephenson]

if DSP is improving the sonics of speakers, why not do same for headphones?

Because a lot of the problems that DSP is correcting for don't exist for headphones/earphones. Room correction, driver-separation correction, timing correction etc.

You're placing blind faith in DSP here. What is 'improving' speakers? There are acoustic problems that DSP simply cannot address - throwing an EQ-based solution at a time-based problem, for example.

DSP can do a lot more than just lob an EQ curve across an output though Elf, it'll do timing correction and room correction in some cases too.

How does the DSP know that you're in an L-shaped room, with one speaker against a wall?

By using a calibrated measurement mic.

[The Elf]

How does the DSP know that you're in an L-shaped room, with one speaker against a wall?

By using a calibrated measurement mic.

Been there, done that. Mixes went so much better when we removed the correction. The studio owner persevered for a few months before he gave up. He likened it to mixing behind a curtain, and I understood that description. Not a cheap system, though the measurement mic has come in useful as a talkback mic though!

I'm open-minded, but I remain sceptical.

[Drew Stephenson]

Been there, done that...

I'm open-minded, but I remain sceptical.

Interesting. I demo'd the Neumann stuff being switched in and out at GearFest and it was the opposite effect. The DSP (more than just room correction in this case I believe) was like lifting a veil. The best parallel I could give would be a bit like running the DAW at 88.1 or oversampling plugins. Subtle but clear improvement in clarity.

[RichardT]

If you're trying to 'reference' what most people listen to, don't forget the Siri/Alexa mono mini-speaker on a shelf at the back of the room!

You don't need to overthink this. Mix on high-quality monitoring to maximise your ability to hone the mix. Check loud and quiet. Check in mono. Check on something with limited bandwidth. Check on phones. Job done.

Yes, don’t try to optimise for a large set of devices - you’ll just end up chasing your tail. And I follow the same approach as Hugh - mix on the best system possible, and then check on other lower-quality systems.

[OK1]

How does the DSP know that you're in an L-shaped room, with one speaker against a wall?

By using a calibrated measurement mic.

Been there, done that. Mixes went so much better when we removed the correction. The studio owner persevered for a few months before he gave up. He likened it to mixing behind a curtain, and I understood that description. Not a cheap system, though the measurement mic has come in useful as a talkback mic though!

I'm open-minded, but I remain sceptical.

How does one explain the many impressive testimonies for the products sold by Trinnov - placebo?

I can imagine speaker/room correction, like most skills, is a function of knowledge and understanding, or using the right tools. What method of correction/tools did you use, maybe that was the weak link.

From all I have read, and listened to, methods like those implemented using Trinnov, and the Genelec or Neumann correction tools, seem to do the opposite of what you have described and improve the performance/linearity of the speaker - especially at the listening position. Have you experimented with any of these, or the ARC tools by IK multimedia?

[OK1]

Been there, done that...

I'm open-minded, but I remain sceptical.

Interesting. I demo'd the Neumann stuff being switched in and out at GearFest and it was the opposite effect. The DSP (more than just room correction in this case I believe) was like lifting a veil. The best parallel I could give would be a bit like running the DAW at 88.1 or oversampling plugins. Subtle but clear improvement in clarity.

Am I so glad to hear this, that oversampling plugins does improve the results. So glad. That is my own experience, but so many would argue against doing this. It's something I adopted a while back, and in my case cos of CPU limitations, I only do this on the final mixdown - in offline mode. So glad to hear someone else hears the benefit, of running a 2x sampling rate.

[OK1]

Was early March 2024, when I started this thread. Not that long ago - 2 months. Time does fly, and it has sometimes been quite a bit of a nightmare to learn about the current state of headphones and IEMs, as well as speakers.

I mixed my best ever mix without using any speakers - not even as a reference to check on speakers. Contrary to convention, but that is what worked for me, and now I do 100% of listening on headphones also.

Several years ago, went through a phase where I had become jaded about the quality of music. And has stopped listening to streaming music (e.g Spotify), for at least 2 years. more like 3 or 4 truth be told. I has stopped.

Guess what, thanks to research on sites like audiosciencereview, reddit, youtube, and headphone specific focus sites/forums, contrary to the general negativity towards headphones that I found here, it's a booming industry, with tons of options, and a new IEM released every few weeks. It does have its caveats, like anything, and land mines which need avoidance.

Just thought I'd put some closure to my initial request. Yes I found what I needed to. I'm using headphones exclusively now, with the level of detail and clarity, that may cost me thousands of pounds - if I had to do this on proper speakers. The knowledge is out there, yes it takes a while to trudge through it all, but I have never been happier with my listening. for those on a budget, who cannot afford thousands of pounds to treat their room and purchase expensive speakers, or like me - who also wishes to respect my neighbour who lives across the dividing wall of an adjoining home, the options are out there, may take a bit of trial and error, to point you in the right direction.

I'll leave a few hints. Youtube probably is the best single source. And some noted reviewers, whose opinions can be trusted - Akros, Paul Wasabi, AndyAudioVault, JaysAudio, Crinacle (albeit he retired from this recently).

Start with a budget single dynamic driver (DD) IEM. Nothing expensive to dip your toes, and become familiar with things like using the right eartips for your own ears., generally become accustomed to IEMs.

Then decide what other configurations you may want to acquire as an education or alternative. Multiple DD, Hybrid, ALL balanced armature (BA), Planar Magnetic.

Clearly one has to go where the knowledge is, its out there the knowledge, and the products. I've found it, used it, and purchased some headphones/IEM's that I'm very happy to listen to all day, and night cos I can have music playing as I drift off to sleep. And wake up with music if I want to.

Candidly, the professional world of audio needs a mindset rethink. Speakers are no longer the only options for critical mixing and listening., in my humble opinion. And the cost of admission, to good quality listening using these tiny transducers, is several orders of magnitude less than what has been the traditional cost of studio speakers. What previously cost thousands in the IEM world can now be acquired for a lot less.

Those who have been traditionally resistant to headphones as a source for critical listening, should take a second look, cos the market and technologies and especially competition, has brought much better designed and manufactured products to the market.

I've owned an AKG K702 for 10 years (almost) but I would not go back to it, cos for the same amount circa £150, almost any well chosen IEM in that price bracket in today's world would run rings around the K702, in clarity, frequency response, resolution. Why, the market, has changed, and it's the consumer market with a huge market, that has driven the innovation - time for the professional audio industry to play catch up.

And guess what, makes sense cos far more people are listening on what - headphones.

[OK1]

Was early March 2024

Correction - Early May 2024

[alexis]

Nice IEMs review in SOS this month:

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/ul ... 50-250-350

[OK1]

Nice IEMs review in SOS this month:

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/ul ... 50-250-350

Thanks I'll read it. Appreciated.

[sonics]

I'll leave a few hints. Youtube probably is the best single source. And some noted reviewers, whose opinions can be trusted - Akros, Paul Wasabi, AndyAudioVault, JaysAudio, Crinacle (albeit he retired from this recently).

I've owned an AKG K702 for 10 years (almost) but I would not go back to it, cos for the same amount circa £150, almost any well chosen IEM in that price bracket in today's world would run rings around the K702, in clarity, frequency response, resolution.

Why not do more than hint? What do you own or have used that are better than the K702? Genuine interest, not goading...

[OK1]

I'll leave a few hints. Youtube probably is the best single source. And some noted reviewers, whose opinions can be trusted - Akros, Paul Wasabi, AndyAudioVault, JaysAudio, Crinacle (albeit he retired from this recently).

I've owned an AKG K702 for 10 years (almost) but I would not go back to it, cos for the same amount circa £150, almost any well chosen IEM in that price bracket in today's world would run rings around the K702, in clarity, frequency response, resolution.

Why not do more than hint? What do you own or have used that are better than the K702? Genuine interest, not goading...

Suffice to say, I went through a few "starter" products, which I would not recommend anymore, cos that was my own learning curve - sunk cost. Not worth discussing them. Would not want anyone else treading that aspect of my journey. No point making others suffer and lose some money, cos I went through this initial hurdle.

More relevant, would be for each to invest time to do their own research, cos our needs and preferences are very different. I started with a single dynamic driver IEM, to give me an idea of what is possible. That aspect I think is still valuable - starting with a single DD IEM.

A good one would be the SIMGOT EA500 or the newer version the EA500LM- which is a single DD IEM. and the sort of good quality starter product I would get 1st, if I had to do this all over again.

Then take it from there.

Far more important than a specific product I have or would recommend, is the difference in approach to acquiring IEM's cos of the favourable cost. Unlike traditional headphones, where typically you spend at least £150 to £350 buying your 1st decent headphone, like an AKG K702 or a Sennheiser HD600 or HD650, the cost of today's IEMs, in the consumer segment, gives you the opportunity to start with something like the SIMGOT EA500 or EA500 LM, for about £80 - see link to amazon below.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Linsoul-SIMGOT ... B0CSJQDXCD

And then using this starter IEM as a reference, over many weeks of listening to it, you can, based on studying reviews, comparison reviews and comparing the frequency response graphs of your starter IEM and other IEM's, decide if this is good enough for you or you may want to acquire one or more additional IEM's, to give you options that are even closer to your listening preference, should you decide you wish to acquire more than one.

Headphones.com is also a great site to learn from.

There is a temptation to buy cheaper IEMs, below £50, cos these do exist but there are risks of inconsistencies and poor quality control, so best to avoid these risks, in my opinion, uness one has studied the market extensively.

JayAudio on Youtube has a comprehensive comparison/ranking online spreadsheet, which he includes, in the links below his recent Youtube videos. This is an excellent resource for any further research, which will cut down any research by months. I only discovered it a few days ago, if I had that kind of resource when I started my search, it would have saved me a lot of time, and prevented me from wasting money, on the few IEM's I bought along the way.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7XjMH ... oe-EFonGcg

Compared to when I acquired my AKGK702, almost a decade ago, there are now many more sites with measurements of the frequency response of many of these IEMs, so one can compare them. A key suggested source would be one of the squigs.link repositories of IEM measurements, or Rtings., or crinacle's IEM database.

Hopefully from this response and my recent post, I've left much more than a hint, which should be enough to start anyone else off, assuredly

[sonics]

Thanks for the reply. I'm disappointed that you mention only one pair of IEMs by name. Those were on my shortlist.

Many of the reviews I've seen measure only frequency response (and often with quite variable results, as well); the rest is usually subjective commentary of the audiophile type. I have given up trying to find professional reviews, not that I ever really expected to find any, since it's a hobbyist pursuit in the main.

BTW, I've already done a lot of reading and listening, and own several pair of IEMs.

[OK1]

Thanks for the reply. I'm disappointed that you mention only one pair of IEMs by name. Those were on my shortlist.

Many of the reviews I've seen measure only frequency response (and often with quite variable results, as well); the rest is usually subjective commentary of the audiophile type. I have given up trying to find professional reviews, not that I ever really expected to find any, since it's a hobbyist pursuit in the main.

BTW, I've already done a lot of reading and listening, and own several pair of IEMs.

The sources I pointed to, have several hundred, and it would be superfluous of me to attempt to filter and list more than 1, cos there must be at least 30 safe options, therein, but these safe options, vary based on listening preference, and our own ears.

One really important aspect of IEM based listening is how different each of us interprets the end result, cos our brains do not decode what we hear exactly the same, due to the shape of our ears, allegedly.

I think I did well to hone in on one IEM, that would be assured to satisfy the vast majority. And an IEM, that would pass scrutiny, of anyone, for value for money.

Thankfully you are in an even better position than me, to share your experience with IEMs, which would be superb, and add value to the discussion, as you own several.

Some professional musicians are moving over to the affordable consumer IEM's, cos with the exception of custom moulding, these consumer IEM's sound better than some "professional" head/IEM listening devices. So it's gone beyond a hobby, to what some people use professionally - i.e to make a living.

One factor we cannot avoid, is, in the main, there is an elephant in the room. A bilateral relationship between the writers of "professional" product reviewers, and the manufacturers of these "professional" products, who also advertise in the "professional" magazines, such as SOS. All reviews, including the professional one's need a pinch or a large dose of salt. So there really is not much difference between the "professional" reviewers and the hobbyist reviewers - main difference is where their views are published, and who pays for those reviews to be written, and how revenue is derived.

All reviews, need the reader/listener to do their own reasoning. The advantage of today's hobbyists and semi pro reviewers are there are lots of them, so e.g onen can typically read as many as 10 reviews of the same product, which has a certain value. Compared to the professional reviewers, where one is unlikely to find more than one or two published opinions (cos one is unlikely to be subscribed to as many magazines that do these reviews). On Youtube/The web, no such restrictions on viewing/reading exist, one can read all about it free.

Furthermore in a paid subscription magazine, or professional reviewer publication, how many IEM's can they review, of the hundreds out there. It's a whole new world, and each day I run into more reviewers, more comparisons, and just discovered a META list, of comparative review lists. So rather than rely on the opinions of one or two, the benefit of what we have today is a wealth of opinions, from which one can piece together the consistent threads, and extract some truth.

[Sam Spoons]

The problem with YT reviewers is that they often have no clue about how to test/review a piece of equipment (I wouldn't have a clue but could easily post a YT 'review') so all they can come up with is random, unsupported, opinion without any reference point. Professional reviewers (in 'proper' pro audio mags like SoS, do at least reference their listening tests to known kit and often provide tech specifications derived from their own testing rather than the manufacturers.