Audio drop-outs on playback from Logic

[BigRedX]

I stopped using a StreamDeck with my M1 MacMini as I got audio dropouts. It wasn’t essential to my workflow so I didn’t look into it but they stopped when the StreamDeck wasn’t connected.

What audio interface were you using?

Luckily since downgrading the Streamdeck application to the one I originally installed I haven't experienced any drop outs. However since I haven't come across anything that matches the functionality of the Streamdeck pedal for me needs I would be tempted to replace the interface with something less prone to USB interference.

[BigRedX]

I've been using a Streamdeck for several years, including on my current M1 MacBook Pro without a problem.

Which audio interface is that with?

[Bob Bickerton]

UAD Apollo 8p ..........

Bob

[BigRedX]

UAD Apollo 8p ..........

Thanks. Unfortunately no MIDI and an external PSU (although it does appear to have a locking connector), which makes it unsuitable for my needs.

[adamburgess]

What would you suggest as an alternative to Logic? It must support multi-track audio output and MIDI.

I do agree Logic seems very big and heavy to use live. I can put up with the odd thing at home when I really push it, but wouldn't risk it live - especially going between projects!

I'm all for QLab. It's really very stable, plays multitracks, can be as flexible as you like, and I also control it live with a Streamdeck XL. It can send/receive MIDI (notes, PC, CC, SysEx), and OSC.

Never let me down yet in years and hundreds of gigs.

Usually use my XR18 with it on the road, or an X32R at home.

[BigRedX]

I do agree Logic seems very big and heavy to use live. I can put up with the odd thing at home when I really push it, but wouldn't risk it live - especially going between projects!

I'm all for QLab. It's really very stable, plays multitracks, can be as flexible as you like, and I also control it live with a Streamdeck XL. It can send/receive MIDI (notes, PC, CC, SysEx), and OSC.

Never let me down yet in years and hundreds of gigs.

Usually use my XR18 with it on the road, or an X32R at home.

I've spent a bit of time looking at QLab and while I'm sure it's great for some people it seems to be a very expensive faff for what I want to do.

We're not running massively complex projects for our backing as it is essentially our drummer and second synth player. Most of our songs are two virtual instruments, a couple of effects plug-in for each, with 3 channels of MIDI program changes and CCs plus MIDI clock for the live instruments and effects. Our most complex song has an additional 2 virtual instruments plus a handful of audio tracks. All the instruments and effects plug-ins apart from one are those that come with Logic. Each song in the set has a number at the start of it's file name and I can change the order of the set in less than a minute by changing those numbers.

The great advantage of running the backing direct from Logic is that we can make changes easily during rehearsal and then they are instantly available for the version of the song we play live. I don't have to worry about converting what I do in Logic to other file formats in order to be able to use them for the live set. In a previous band our backing was controlled from standard MIDI files played back using an Akai S2000. Making a change to a song involved generating a new MIDI file and testing it on our live rig in rehearsal before committing to using it at a gig. We discovered this was necessary the hard way when I made a last minute change to a song at home and the revised MIDI file didn't output correctly, but I didn't find this out until we tried to soundcheck the song. At least we discovered the problem then and were able to get around it by not playing that one song, and not during the actual set.

Also it appears that the current problem was happening post-Logic as it would continue to play on and audio output would come back as though nothing had happened. From what I have been able to discover it was being caused by the version of the Streamdeck software I was using and reverting to the one I had originally installed appears to have stopped the drop-outs. At least I have had two home tests, three rehearsals and a gig without problem since then. Based on this audio dropout would have occurred no matter what software I was using for playback.

[muzines]

So, I just started getting these audio drop outs too, and, not so co-incidentally, I just started using the Stream Deck software (followed by the hardware)... Also with a Focusrite interface - I see the same behaviour as you did. They are definitely related...

[muzines]

I'm trying to determine the cause of this but it's taking a while as I have to wait until the issue shows up, and it's intermittent and can take a while.

What I can say is that I've been running the Stream Deck software (with the iOS app) for a couple of weeks to figure out how useful the device would be to my workflow and what size I'd best need, and never had the audio dropout issue once.

But since receiving the physical Stream Deck MKII (which is - currently - on the same hub as my audio interface), that's when I started to notice getting the drop out. So it's entirely possible it's the presence of the hardware that is triggering the issue. Once I can definitely know this is the case, I'll experiment with moving the SD hardware to different ports to see whether the same issue happens or whether it stops it...

(It's nothing to do with Logic BTW, the dropout just kills the output to the Focusrite, system audio, the works...)

[BigRedX]

Which version of the Stream Deck software are you running?

Since I reverted to 5.3.3 (which I had installed originally) I haven't noticed any audio drop outs. Of course that doesn't point to a guaranteed cure as the problem is intermittent, but in the last 3 weeks of home use, rehearsals and gigs I haven't noticed any.

It's useful that someone else has been able to replicate the problem. Can you comment on the following:

1. The problem only happens once in a session (while the computer is switched on and Logic is active). Once I've had an audio drop out it won't be repeated, or at least I can't recall a situation where it has happened again at the same rehearsal or gig.

2. Opening a project and running a few bars then closing and opening a different one repeated a few times always prevents drop outs from happening. Not definitive I know but this worked for me before I downgraded the Stream Deck app.

[muzines]

Which version of the Stream Deck software are you running?

The current version - I was on 6.6.1, now it's 6.7.0

Since I reverted to 5.3.3 (which I had installed originally) I haven't noticed any audio drop outs. Of course that doesn't point to a guaranteed cure as the problem is intermittent, but in the last 3 weeks of home use, rehearsals and gigs I haven't noticed any.

Yep, I'm just trying to casually gather data while in use. I haven't managed to replicate the dropouts I was having yet today. I want to stay current on software where possible, as I like the features etc.

1. The problem only happens once in a session (while the computer is switched on and Logic is active). Once I've had an audio drop out it won't be repeated, or at least I can't recall a situation where it has happened again at the same rehearsal or gig.

No, I had it a couple of times during a single YouTube video within about 20 minutes apart. It's easy enough to recover - one of my general profile buttons toggles my audio output device between the internal MBP speakers, and the audio interface, so when the Focusrite audio has gone, I hit that button and audio comes out of the MBP, hit it again and it's back to coming out of the Focusrite.

2. Opening a project and running a few bars then closing and opening a different one repeated a few times always prevents drop outs from happening. Not definitive I know but this worked for me before I downgraded the Stream Deck app.

None of this is related to Logic - Logic wasn't even running when I started getting dropouts. I don't think we can say what causes it, or what might prevent it, at this stage. Your observations may well be true, but also might just be co-incidence.

What I'm interested in figuring out initially is if the dropouts *need* the hardware connected to occur (which I suspect), or whether they can occur with just the software running, and no hardware connected (which I haven't replicated yet). And if the former, whether putting it on a different USB bus prevents that from happening, or not...

But as of now, I can't recreate any dropouts, so until one happens I haven't got any more meaningful data...

[adamburgess]

Not much help, I'm sure… but running latest Stream Deck version 6.7.0 on

• M1 Mac mini on the latest developer beta Sequoia OS
• M1 MacBook Air on Sonoma 14.5
• M2 MacBook Air on Sonoma 14.5

Use Logic and the Stream Deck pretty much every day and I've never had a dropout

Core Audio into either built-in Audio, an X32, or an XR18. Occasionally an iConnectivity Audio 2.

[adamburgess]

I've spent a bit of time looking at QLab and while I'm sure it's great for some people it seems to be a very expensive faff for what I want to do.

Thanks for the detailed info. I'm used to re-bouncing stuff if need be so no MIDI/plug-ins are being processed 'live'.

Sorry can't help with the dropouts. Intermittent issues are indeed a pain

[BigRedX]

Muzines, have you been able to get any more information on this problem?

After almost 2 months of problem free running since I downgraded to the version of the Streamdeck software that I had installed when I first got the pedal we had a momentary audio drop out during rehearsal last night, so downgrading hasn't 100% cured it.

Do the Focusrite interfaces use a driver in order to work? There is the Control app to set up the routing but it's not required once your preferred routing has been set up.

Is everyone who is or has been having problems with Streamdeck hardware also have a Focusrite interface? I'm considering changing to a different interface but struggling to find something with the required features that isn't also massively expensive:

Properly rack mountable (with an adaptor is fine) taking up no more than 1U space.
At least 6 balanced-line audio outputs.
MIDI in and out sockets.
Built-in PSU. I'll consider something with an external PSU provided that the PSU has a sufficiently small form-factor as space in the rack case is limited.
Will work with both my Mac (2012 MacBook Pro) and the current range of M-series Macs as I will almost certainly be upgrading in the next 12 months.

[muzines]

Muzines, have you been able to get any more information on this problem?

So, I've only been able to investigate when the drop out happens. For a week after the initial event, I had zero problems, Scarlett and Stream Deck were behaving as expected - until exactly a week later, watching the same YouTube stream, I got the drop out again - so it was exactly the same scenario as when I first experienced the drop out.

While the audio was gone, I loaded another app to playback audio and found the audio played through the interface fine - so it wasn't that the Focusrite driver had stopped, or the hardware gone away, or the system audio had gone - the Scarlett was still working fine.

As I was running Safari/YouTube through plugins via Audio Hijack to compress the YouTube stream, the drop out had happened somewhere between YouTube, the audio output of Safari, and the hijacking of Audio Hijack, as it was Safari that stopped producing audio and Audio Hijack was getting no audio input - and as yet, it hasn't happened again, so I don't know whether any of this is actually related to the Stream Deck, or whether it was just a co-incidence it happened just after I got mine. And if it *is* somehow caused by the Stream Deck, I don't know whether the issue is interrupting audio from a particular app, or the Audio Hijack process, or some other weird thing, or whether it happens when the Stream Deck is not connected, or on another USB bus etc - all things I would try if I could replicate the issue enough to test these things.

It hasn't happened since, so I'm none the wiser, really.

Do the Focusrite interfaces use a driver in order to work?

No, they are class compliant devices.

[BigRedX]

My problem seems to be slightly different to yours in that my drop-outs are only temporary - about 1 beat long at around 120-140BPM. It's disconcerting, but I'm trying to get my band used to just playing through the glitch to make it less noticeable. Ideally I would prefer not to have any drop-outs but until the cause has been tracked down and eliminated, this is the best I can do.

I've only had one permanent drop out which happened whilst I was doing the initial testing you suggested and had activity monitor and the Focusrite control application both open and visible on screen. Normally I'm only running Logic and the Streamdeck application and nothing else. In that case I couldn't get audio back through the interface until I had switched it off and back on.

AFAICS It is definitely connected to the presence of the Streamdeck hardware. I have the app on both my Macs but rarely use it on my MacPro desktop and I have never had any drop outs on this system.

[muzines]

My problem seems to be slightly different to yours in that my drop-outs are only temporary - about 1 beat long at around 120-140BPM. It's disconcerting, but I'm trying to get my band used to just playing through the glitch to make it less noticeable. Ideally I would prefer not to have any drop-outs but until the cause has been tracked down and eliminated, this is the best I can do.

Yes, it does sound like a different issue.

I've only had one permanent drop out which happened whilst I was doing the initial testing you suggested and had activity monitor and the Focusrite control application both open and visible on screen. Normally I'm only running Logic and the Streamdeck application and nothing else. In that case I couldn't get audio back through the interface until I had switched it off and back on.

And a different issue again. I haven't ever lost audio like that that I can think of - what more often happens to me is the Focusrite Control loses the ability to see the hardware is connected without power cycling (but the audio playback continues to work fine). Although the recent Focusrite Control app update I installed a few weeks ago has really improved performance of that app and that hasn't happened yet since that update.

AFAICS It is definitely connected to the presence of the Streamdeck hardware. I have the app on both my Macs but rarely use it on my MacPro desktop and I have never had any drop outs on this system.

What macOS version are you running on the affected machine?

[BigRedX]

Update on this. After a couple of months of troubleshooting with help from both Elgato and Focusrite technical support, we haven't come any closer to tracking down why this is happening or finding a fix. The big problem is that the problem is very intermittent and I can go for a month without suffering any audio drop outs, and then get one at the next 3-4 rehearsals or gigs.

Both Elgato and Focusrite suggested some generic preference deletions, none of which permanently fixed the problem and because it would sometimes take several weeks until I could report back that their suggestion had been unsuccessful, they were constantly closing and having to re-open my support tickets.

In the end after a particularly nerve-wracking gig where for the first time we suffered two audio drop outs in the same session, I decided to look for alternatives to the StreamDeck Pedal.

Having failed to find anything hardwired, I am currently testing an AirTurn BT500S-2. I'm not massively keen on using Bluetooth on stage and the interface is less intuitive than the Elgato one. Although in theory it supports 7 different footswitch combinations, changing between them is not particularly intuitive. Therefore I have set all of the 5 that are programmable to the same settings. So far after some home use and 3 rehearsals it has proved surprisingly reliable. I have two important gigs next week which will be the first time it will be used properly "in anger" and I'll report back with how it has fared. I'll also be taking the Elgato pedal as an emergency back-up.

[BigRedX]

Reviving this thread because the problem is back and worse than before.

After a year of trouble-free running (roughly 60 gigs and rehearsals) using the AirTurn BT500S-2 via Bluetooth instead of the StreamDeck Pedal via USB, we had a permanent audio cut out at our gig on Saturday. As far as Logic was concerned nothing with amiss. It carried on "playing" and there was no error message saying it couldn't find the audio interface plus the MIDI commands that the Focusrite Scarlet 18i20 (second gen) transmits to our other equipment continued to be sent. Just no audio output from the interface and it was permanent this time rather than a brief one beat drop out.

Luckily it happened during our penultimate song where the backing only really supplies the drums and we were able to play to the end doing the patch changes on the live equipment manually. However in the brief time we had left for our set it proved impossible to get the audio output for the next song. Turning the Focusrite off and on again go us 3 bars of audio before it once again cut out and nothing else we were able to do within the time got it working again.

Back at home everything appeared to be fine. I loaded up the first song and had audio and MIDI as I should. I then tried running the set from the previous night and when I got to the song that cut out at the gig it did so again but in a completely different place. The only way I could get the audio to come back on through the interface was to reboot both the Mac and the interface.

At this point I noticed that I still had the Elgato StreamDeck software installed, so I removed everything I could find with Elgato and StreamDeck in the name and rebooted. Since then the set up has run for about 45 minutes without any problems. However due to the intermittent nature of the problem it's impossible to know if it has now been cured. I'll be running the set up as often as I can between now and our next gig on Saturday, but an absence of the problem recurring in this time frame doesn't mean it has been solved.

Are there any logs I could be looking at that might indicate what is happening? And if so how do I see them?

[ajay_m]

Interesting... It appears that a number of people have had audio dropouts on ARM-based Macs in different contexts. I can say that with three Streamdecks connected to a Windows machine via a hub I have never had any kind of audio dropout issue so I rather doubt that there is some kind of USB signal-level issue - as opposed to driver issues (although replacing all cables never hurts) but I can also say that I never entirely got stable performance from a Scarlett 6i6 despite updating drivers etc - apart from the odd glitch I had some blue screens as well - I'm certainly not denigrating Focusrite but the escalation of the problem to a total audio cutout seems like a completely different problem and I would be starting to wonder about the interface. It was the only interface I've ever owned that gave me problems, and I've had a fair few over the years.

I can see there's someone in the UK selling one in good condition on Reverb for £195. I would be tempted to swap out the interface, if nothing else, you now have a spare and, well, time is money.

I am fairly knowledgeable on Windows (and I know Linux fairly well too) but Macs I have never worked with. Under Windows I would have tools like the DPC latency monitor and Event Tracing for Windows (as well as the fantastic Sysinternals tools which'll trace process activity in realtime) to really dig in and see if I could identify a transient issue - tools like performance monitor are unfortunately not very useful in situations like this because normally things like dropouts occur, not because of spikes in CPU or disk I/O (though this *can* be a cause) but because some poorly written driver decided to lock a critical internal OS resource for a period of time and caused a massive traffic jam on the M25 as a consequence. Performance monitor doesn't see this, because contention for critical sections isn't something you can easily monitor on any platform.

I had a quick look for Mac tools and unfortunately I'm not seeing good hits for low-level stuff - it's somewhat of a closed platform compared to Windows, with Apple keeping a lot of stuff proprietary. Normally I'd reach for dtrace but I think you have to faff around getting this working on M-series Macs and then interpreting the results requires a fairly high level of skill as well.

[BigRedX]

I'm hoping it's not an inherent problem with the interface because it's one of very few that meets a set of very specific requirements I have, although the fact that problem only affects the audio side of the interface and not the MIDI makes me hopeful that it's not.

There are no drivers required for MacOS because it's USB class compliant. There is a set-up utility for assigning the audio routing in the interface, but this is use once and only if the default setting isn't suitable type of application. Besides earlier experimentation (detailed up-thread) showed that the audio drop outs were happening before the meters on the interface app but post Logic.

Also it's an Intel-based Mac that is having the problems. Having said that I'm hoping to have moved to an M-series MacBook before the end of the year.

The Elgato hardware has long gone and now that I have removed the software I am hoping that the problems are over.

In case there are other interfaces that I could consider here are a list of essential specifications I need:

1. Must fit securely in a 1U rack space. I'm happy to use a rack mounting kit, but only one that doesn't take up more than 1U and bolts/screws the equipment into position.

2. Must have at least 6 channels of analogue audio out and at least one MIDI in and out (with the standard 16 channels of MIDI).

3. Must be compatible with my current Intel Mac running Catalina and any new M-series Mac that I am hoping to buy.

4. Must have a built-in PSU with a standard IEC mains connector. I will consider an external PSU provided that it is small, doesn't run hot, has a lead with a standard 13amp plug on the mains side and the low voltage connector locks securely in place.

[merlyn]

It's possible to view the system log by opening a terminal and typing:

Code: Select all

nano /var/log/system.log

Only kidding ... there's a GUI called Console:

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/c ... sl1012/mac

[BigRedX]

Thank you.

I have found logs for the following processes at around the time the error happened:

dunamis
NGLClient_CoreSync17.1.2.2
Both of which appear to be linked to Adobe Creative Cloud, so hopefully aren't important in my situation.

and
StreamDeck
Which mostly consists of endless messages about "vault.elgato.com" not being found. Which isn't surprising as I have no internet connection enabled on this Mac when using it to run the live backing.

I'm hoping that now I have deleted as many traces of the Elgato software as I can find this will have fixed the problem. Otherwise there doesn't appear to be anything in the log files that could indicate what is going on.

[merlyn]

... StreamDeck
Which mostly consists of endless messages about "vault.elgato.com" not being found. Which isn't surprising as I have no internet connection enabled on this Mac when using it to run the live backing. ...

The .com is just a label. It isn't anything to do with accessing the internet. A lot of messages have labels like that.

It's possible to watch messages live from Console by turning on streaming. Most messages are of the default type and are nothing of concern. Ones to watch out for have a coloured dot beside them.

[ajay_m]

One thing of course with the StreamDeck products is that the core product originally just handled keystroke automation but now there are plugins for all manner of things including OSC and MIDI. These are written by third-party authors and whether any of these could cause issues is unknown. Most of the functionality I now use mine for is handled through Bitfocus Companion using the Companion plugin, so that you just add buttons in the native StreamDeck app that point to a button row/column in the Companion app itself. I think StreamDeck talks over UDP to Companion in this scenario, and then that app is a node.js Javascript app running as a completely separate process.

So whether any 'native' StreamDeck plugins could be problematic I don't know as increasingly I'm adding functionality via Companion, including stuff like live VU meters on buttons - so far, so good in terms of audio issues but I'm definitely gonna be on the lookout for trouble after reading this thread albeit I am of course on Windows.

[BigRedX]

AFAIK I wasn't running any 3rd party plug-ins with my StreamDeck installation, so hopefully I won't have to look for them too. However if I was deleting the Elgato application should stop them from loading if I was.

Since deleting all the left over Elgato software I have been able to run the whole set we intend to play this coming weekend plus all the other songs that we have in our current repertoire without any problems. Hopefully this has sorted it, but I will also run the Console app with streaming on so if there is a problem during further tests I will have a better idea what it might be.