Most scientific reverb

[whitesun]

What's the most scientific reverb? It should be rayspace and vss3/vss4. Rayspace can model shape of spaces but can't model nonair media like water, soil, metals, wood, etc. Also none of them give access to comb and allpass filters like reverbassistant or to delay networks. The ultimate honest scientific reverb has not yet been created. Also import of irs would be valuable. Perhaps there are such for closed groups like holliwood and bolliwood which i don't know like cedar non mainstream plugins, etc. Would be great to have a look at something defferent from simplified mainstream boring stuff.

[RichardT]

I’d say not to worry about whether a reverb is scientifically best or not, but just to consider how various reverbs sound with your music. It’s an aesthetic effect you’re after, and you can judge that by ear.

Reverbs are imperfect, and will remain so until recordings capture the full picture of sound leaving an instrument in every direction, free from reflected sound, if indeed that ever happens!

An instrument such as a violin radiates different sounds in different directions, and to truly model an instrument in a real space, you’d need to capture that or calculate that, and apply different reflection calculations to those different sounds. So for example, the downward sound would bounce off the floor almost immediately.

The problem is actually worse than this, because a recording is done in some kind of space, and that will imprint some kind of reverberation into the sound that is captured. Instrumentalists could play in anechoic chambers to overcome that, but that sounds very un-natural to the players and they wouldn’t play as they normally would.

[whitesun]

Anyway i would be excited to test some scientific forbidden reverbs that are not shown in gugl and its clones... especially those modelling nonair media.

[sonics]

You're looking for a reverb with lots of parameters?

Try something like AltiVerb. For exploring materials you could do that with UAD's DreamVerb, which is over 20 years old now.

I use the Exponential Audio and LiquidSonics reverbs, which are pretty powerful.

Anything more than that and you probably want to program your own!

[whitesun]

I want only to use the ready made software. But i bet there are search engines for closed circles which give out other results than gugl and perhaps there they can find such reverbs besides other scientific software.
Not only many knobs but also many parameters like modification of speed of sound, fluidity, broun movement and access to math engine itself like in reverbassistant. Call it modular reverb. What they propose us is child's game with stupid orange guis and pseudo emulations. Play with randomize button in reverbassistant and note how radically sound.changes - it's not those primitive hicuts, damps and diffusers. In other words it's a reverb and a tool to program its constituents inside the reverb. And it's called scientific.because it.can replace all other reverbs alltogether.

[sonics]

But i bet there are search engines for closed circles which give out other results than gugl and perhaps there they can find such reverbs besides other scientific software.

I don't think so, unless it's some closed research project for the military.
Of course a lot of plugins are overly-simplified, especially for the new market, but that's also why they exist and why they're usually very affordable. If you don't care for the simple stuff, just ignore it and move on.

ISTM that you'd like some very complex software produced and made available at a reasonable price. That's simply not going to happen, hence my suggestion that you might want to get into programming your own.
I use audio software for a living and I am more than happy with the range of what's available, from the simple to the complex. I would not have time for anything more; no work would get done if I spend all my time tweaking parameters!

[Bob Bickerton]

I use audio software for a living and I am more than happy with the range of what's available, from the simple to the complex. I would not have time for anything more; no work would get done if I spend all my time tweaking parameters!

Agreed. I’d rather produce music and earn money rather than faff around programming complex technology. There’s any amount of excellent reverbs available. One of my personal favourites is the UAD Lexicon 224 (actual original code). There’s really no reason you can’t make successful tracks with what’s available off the shelf……

Bob

[S.Crow]

This one is a bit of a monster but best to wait for sales as it is expensive:

https://www.meldaproduction.com/MTurboReverb

[Arpangel]

I use audio software for a living and I am more than happy with the range of what's available, from the simple to the complex. I would not have time for anything more; no work would get done if I spend all my time tweaking parameters!

Agreed. I’d rather produce music and earn money rather than faff around programming complex technology. There’s any amount of excellent reverbs available. One of my personal favourites is the UAD Lexicon 224 (actual original code). There’s really no reason you can’t make successful tracks with what’s available off the shelf……

Bob

Absolutely Bob, my two are Valhalla Room, and VintageVerb, plus I have a UAD Golden, that has a good 224.

[The Red Bladder]

The ultimate honest scientific reverb has not yet been created.

Actually, AKG did exactly that! I wrote it up for Studio Sound back in the 90s - the lead engineer got a doctorate for this development, but I do not think that a commercial version was ever released - or if it was, then only in very simplified form.

The problem is, a manufacturer has to make things people want to pay for - and you are the very first person that I have ever come across that wants a truly scientific reverb - and I bet you do not even want to pay for a regular air & space based 7.1 reverb! (As a guide, ours cost about £10k.)

Perhaps there are such for closed groups like holliwood and bolliwood which i don't know like cedar non mainstream plugins, etc.

I cannot speak for Bollywood, but Hollywood works the same way we all do. The post-prod audio people use a regular 7.1 reverb (we use a Lexicon 960L) and just punches up whatever room is on screen - bathroom? Menu - Rooms - select Bathroom. Job done! Rinse - repeat for all other spaces.

If it is something like a car, the usual drill is to either use the prod sound or do the dialog in ADR in a small iso booth and put the actors close to a glass screen and mic with a U87 or similar. That way, you get that closed in feeling of a car. Add car noises to match the screen - car interiors are done on a trailer anyway, so no engine noises.

The movie industry works to very strict schedules and time is of the essence, so we all use the presets! The word 'late' can be not just career ending, but has even cost whole studios their very existence!

[whitesun]

You seem to be a knowledgeable guy. May be you can disclose some secrets about reverb, one is how do they {vss4} achieve no comb filtering in mono while stereorizing in stereo? Such thing to some.degree can be achieved by doing some processing to IRs which adds them monocompatibility properties. I think in Russia there is no such thing as insane fast workflow to survive as family and sexual relations fully determine your status, and anyway local movies are more like addition to western movies than replacement for them.
Also do you know the proper way to make digital reverberation alive? In Russia some use such hack as buying analog hw spring reverb and mix it with software reverb. There are tricks like randomizing length of early reflections, some random modulating their place in stereofield and perhaps even different equing of LR by vsts but i suspect there are other more profound ways.

[whitesun]

The guy has magically vanished into the nowhere...

[Arpangel]

I've been following this thread, I'm puzzled, are you interested in discussing this topic from a purely academic point of view? in which case, fine, great.
Or, do you have a real-world use that you’re looking to find a reverb for?
The choice of reverbs available to us these days covers everything we could think of and beyond, without even going beyond the presets.
Years ago we may have had to edit presets, but not now, the market has changed and expanded to suite everyones music, and genre.
I have various reverbs, and they are all stuck on presets, no need to edit, maybe very occasionally, but even then it's basic things like decay, mix, size, and that's about it.

[whitesun]

Presets can be a starting point what's usually mentioned in manuals and no reverb will work there unless modified by some magical tweaking. And a scientific reverb would provide possibilities for such tweaking. Usual metallic sounding reverbs won't do. Scientific reverb would allow tweaking profound parameters for quicker finding the appropriate quality.

[sonics]

Usual metallic sounding reverbs won't do.

Have you actually heard the most popular reverbs used in professional circles? They are certainly not considered metallic.

Scientific reverb would allow tweaking profound parameters for quicker finding the appropriate quality.

This is odd thinking. Many people would consider the selection of a suitable preset a quicker way to find a suitable sound.

[Arpangel]

The use of certain reverbs in "professional circles" is a laugh sometimes, because opinions are so varied, and sometimes money doesn’t come into it.
Now there are so many pedals at it too, ones that can make sounds that would only be available using expensive racks a few years back, that's why the 19 inch market has dwindled, also due to high quality plug-in's.
I'm a bit of a reverb nerd, since I was very young reverb devices have always fascinated me.

[whitesun]

I have frequently come across the opinion that hw reverbs at least of the past sounded alive compared vs software ones or irs of those hardware. I suspect that hw ones have had some modulation not implemented in sterile software ones. Probably, the right way to do it is to detect least metallic reverb with flat frequency response and modulate all knobs on it avoiding distortions.

[whitesun]

What distinguishes truly scientiric reverb is ability to change length and pattern of separately early vs diffuse reflections. For that criterion vss3 for example fails to be scientific and even vss4 - the so called king. But rayspace can do it. I don't remember other reverbs with such ability perhaps oxford reverb with its limited indoor space shapes and metallic comb filtering. To say it simpler scientific reverb can recreate not only indoor spaces but any ones and with different media.

[Drew Stephenson]

Waves TrueVerb has the ability to change the early reflections separately to the tail, but it is based on existing spaces. Likewise Inspired Acoustics Inspirata gives you some very extensive parameter options - from a very scientific perspective - but again it's all based on existing modelled spaces.
It sounds like you're after something that allows you to build a new virtual space from the ground up?

[sonics]

I have frequently come across the opinion that hw reverbs at least of the past sounded alive compared vs software ones or irs of those hardware. I suspect that hw ones have had some modulation not implemented in sterile software ones.

So what type of reverb are you trying to create? Older hardware was always a compromise due to restricted processing power. Various tricks like modulations are applied (in part) to "hide" these compromises; the results are not natural, but became the sound of hits, and were loved for that and other reasons.
Those reverbs have been emulated and surpassed by software. Do you really think all digital reverbs sound sterile? That's just not the case.

So, what sort of reverb sound is it you're after?

[whitesun]

Those old hw reverbs had zero traits of premises with them just providing diffuse field I suspect. I once tried kxdrivers with audigy2 dsp where you can load algos written by some programers, it was called reverb lite, and it sounds nothing like any software reverb. It was pure diffuse field. You don't hear any premises in hits because you already listen it in a room. Another one close to reverb lite was timeworks 4080i from 1999. If you want spaces you hardly want any rectangular premises. In good conservatoire halls you also feel more diffuse field than premises. The idea is that you don't want sound of enclosed spaces to be imprinted. Ok, now you take any modern reverb and scroll through presets and what you will see? No woods, no underwater,no landscapes, no outdoor acoustic spaces but different unpleasant flavours of concert halls and other rooms. So what do i want? I just want some honest scientific reverb to calculate non metalic non enclosed spaces, the one which would make me uninstall all other reverbs. Btw good diffuse field should be able to turn into wash at 100% even with medium tails like 4secs like 18s tail in vss3. Btw i have failed to recreate diffuse field with vst delays set to 10sec feedback for bells sound though as per some articles it was possible with hw delays in 90s. The denseness of repetitions is questionable. Try yourself. Set very small delay time like 50ms with 95% feedback - it actually will sound for a couple of seconds with high metallicity instead of 10sec normal wash with original timbre. With grm delays it's a bit better with random ON and big fb but still far from being considered professional. You have to apply bells and whistles to achieve smth decent.

[whitesun]

Ps. Adaptiverb can make decent diffuse field but it's not usable for realtime kernel due to latency, also early module is missing. Not sceintific.

[whitesun]

Scientific reverb besides the aforementioned should be able to stack delay repeats into complete wash. Instead we are offered separate module with a separate algo to simulate diffuse field in typical vsts with ers+tail.

[BWC]

...where you can load algos written by some programers, ..., and it sounds nothing like any software reverb.

...umm ...

[Hugh Robjohns]

Whitesun's abusive post deleted and member banned — HR