Sam Spoons wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2024 11:12 pm
A PA speaker is, by definition, FRFR so any half decent powered PA cab should get the job done.
Yep, the whole FRFR for guitar modellers is purely snake oil given the additional cost over ordinary speakers; what's more, all they do is use corrective EQ, and furthermore, the guitar cab they're trying to emulate has never, ever been a flat response or full range. Modellers can sound bad enough, FRFR speakers simply compound that.
FRFR cabs vary from rebadged PA cabs (Headrush/Alto) to dedicated FRFR guitar cabs (Line 6) designed to look like a conventional guitar cab/combo but*, AFAIK, none use different eq to 'active' PA cabs.
* Happy to be corrected but what would be the purpose when the amp/cab modelling in a Helix/Headrush/WHY is designed specifically to do that?
Sam Spoons wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 9:29 am
FRFR cabs vary from rebadged PA cabs (Headrush/Alto) to dedicated FRFR guitar cabs (Line 6) designed to look like a conventional guitar cab/combo but*, AFAIK, none use different eq to 'active' PA cabs.
* Happy to be corrected but what would be the purpose when the amp/cab modelling in a Helix/Headrush/WHY is designed specifically to do that?
The flat response is achieved using corrective EQ, as per almost all active speakers, so the additional premium for a "Guitar FRFR" is the snake oil element.
The "amp/cab" modelling in all modellers that I've used are still generally full range, particularly if the effects are run after the amp/cab block (which most people do). That's the reason that A. It never really sounds accurate (but accurate enough in a live mix), and B. A guitar specific FRFR speaker is pointless. Having been down this route in a live gigging situation, I run an EQ on the guitar/amp/modeller input at the desk with a high/low pass to negate the full range.
Sam Spoons wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 9:29 am
FRFR cabs vary from rebadged PA cabs (Headrush/Alto) to dedicated FRFR guitar cabs (Line 6) designed to look like a conventional guitar cab/combo but*, AFAIK, none use different eq to 'active' PA cabs.
* Happy to be corrected but what would be the purpose when the amp/cab modelling in a Helix/Headrush/WHY is designed specifically to do that?
The flat response is achieved using corrective EQ, as per almost all active speakers, so the additional premium for a "Guitar FRFR" is the snake oil element.
Understood
The "amp/cab" modelling in all modellers that I've used are still generally full range, particularly if the effects are run after the amp/cab block (which most people do). That's the reason that A. It never really sounds accurate (but accurate enough in a live mix), and B. A guitar specific FRFR speaker is pointless.
My point exactly...
Having been down this route in a live gigging situation, I run an EQ on the guitar/amp/modeller input at the desk with a high/low pass to negate the full range.
Interesting, I may look into this when I'm back home, it does seem counter intuitive given that the modelling is supposed to do this but I suppose your band pass filtering can't remove what isn't there.
Music Wolf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 8:20 amAn PA type FRFR cab is fine, but don't pay over the odds for something that purports to be 'designed' specifically for guitar and which costs significantly more
Another option could be getting a Boss Katana amp and running your modeller into the power amp in on the amp, you'd have the bonus that if your modeller dies you'd still be able to use the amp models and effects in the Katana.
Alternatively, if you use the 4 cable method with the amp's effects loop you could use both your modeller's amps and effects or the Katana's amps and effects interchangeably.
I've used this type of setup with a Line 6 Firehawk FX, using a Katana as a monitor and sending the Firehawk direct outs to the PA.
I too have to confess that I have never really 'got' the FRFR speaker concept?
Not for electric guitar anyway. I can see that the response and other qualities of the guitar signal have already been 'baked' by the hard or software processing and so you don't want the speaker messing with that but I see no need for an HF response extending much beyond 10kHz? The LF response also does not need to go much lower than 80Hz, plenty of standard guitar twelves have a resonance at 70Hz and some as low as 55Hz.
That the speaker should have high power handling I do understand. Distortion produced by the 'emulation' should not be added to. A decently flat frequency response is also required.
I tried to get some info from Celestion's site but they now slap a 'form' in front of everything which you can't remove. Yes Celestion! I MIGHT want to to subscribe but I'll be damned if I am going to be forced to!
Music Wolf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 8:20 amAn PA type FRFR cab is fine, but don't pay over the odds for something that purports to be 'designed' specifically for guitar and which costs significantly more
Got it, thanks for the useful info
A quick Google suggests that repurposed PA cabs like the Headrush/Alto are much the same price as the donor but specially designed FRFR guitar speakers cost more, maybe thats down to different build quality and lower production volumes (Alto are a budget brand when all said and done)?
Another random thought - our main guitar man uses an Axe FX with an old Peavey Keyboard Amp for his monitoring. Second feed direct to PA.
The logic is keyboard amps "should" be pretty neutral in theory....
Yes, possibly the original FRFR speakers Acoustic guitar amps likewise but with the addition of a suitable high impedance input to cope with passive piezo pickups.
I know there are a number of people on here who use digital modelling fx units with considerable success but, while I have owned and used several and currently own a Headrush Gigboard, I'm just happier with a guitar, valve combo and a few pedals. If I was still gigging regularly I might invest sufficient time in getting the Headrush working for me but only doing a couple of gigs a year ATM.
In the genre I play (goth/post-punk) it appears that having backline is rapidly going out of fashion. The last few gigs I have attended as both a player and a punter there have been hardly any guitar or bass amps on display with most going straight from their modelling devices into the PA. It has also been noticeable that the few bands that have had backline have all sounded less good either due to balance issues FoH, just the general sounds, or excessive unwanted noise coming through their amps.
For the bass and bass VI I can't see myself ever going back to traditional amplification unless I'm ever lucky enough to join a band playing great songs that will pay me a living wage to be a member in which case I'll use whatever gear they want me to. I haven't had to use the Helix for guitar sounds yet, but given that there are hundreds of amp and cab combinations available, if I can't find sat least one I like I'll be very surprised.
I looked at FRFR speakers a while back & thought they were overpriced for what you were getting. I only really needed one for home use with my Pod Go. Then I remembered I had still a pair of M-Audio AV 40 active monitors & they've worked out fine for me & I can use stereo fx too. They wouldn't be any use for live work though.
Dynamic Mike wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2024 1:48 am
I looked at FRFR speakers a while back & thought they were overpriced for what you were getting. I only really needed one for home use with my Pod Go. Then I remembered I had still a pair of M-Audio AV 40 active monitors & they've worked out fine for me & I can use stereo fx too. They wouldn't be any use for live work though.
I thought mine was pretty good VfM considering that cheapest decent lightweight bass cabs are just under the price of the RCF745. In fact I spent less buying the FRFR and Helix then I had on my previous bass rig, ten years previously, and much of that had been second hand. Also when I sold on all the gear that had been replaced by this purchase I came away with a profit.
I looked up FRFR as I was unsure what that was. With those satisfied with modelling and effects with extensive sound tweaking possibilities I think they might make a lot of sense with caveats.
I went for a second hand pair of Eris 3.5 gen 1 in the end as these make sense to me and what I want to do, modestly playing against backings at home and were a great price. I will strap the speakers together probably side ways to improve stereo seperation a tad. I do not need any additional drive/models so this makes most sense.
Sound (tone) wise it comes down to the never ending story of tone. I think playing skill is vastly more important than tone personally. Though tone is VERY important after that, as it absolutely adds to sensory enjoyment. I say that as someone very particlular about the sound of what I play through, being somewhat of a tone tweaker (not to mention effects). I rather rely on effects delay etc. Well you cannot be good at everything can you ? I enjoy the sound that delays, flange and phasers give me.
If you like classic overdriven/crunch and fuzz tones from tubes then I suspect amps / heads are going to be very important, plus single speaker (less tweeter) to get the classic harmonic rich guitar sound you want.
Having a tweeter can be heard as both a problem and a benefit depending on what you are satisfied with. That detail/extra presence is not always required, maybe even never required in the ears of some for guitar. Afterall people have used 1,2 or 4 classic drivers for the most of electric guitar history.
And could end up being fatiguing I suspect if not assessed well for playing volumes/SPL.
I suppose it depends if you want that extra clarity in the upper mids/tops.
I like some clarity but not a thin sound and I do desire stereo for my own enjoyments sake. You are very likely to make your own right decision based on practical need and taste.
I thought mine was pretty good VfM considering that cheapest decent lightweight bass cabs are just under the price of the RCF745. In fact I spent less buying the FRFR and Helix then I had on my previous bass rig, ten years previously, and much of that had been second hand. Also when I sold on all the gear that had been replaced by this purchase I came away with a profit.
I think they make perfect sense if you're gigging but for home practice they're probably OTT. I mostly use my Vox AD30VT which has a useful power-soak feature built in, but it's getting on and only has 2 presets you can store. I just wanted to use the Pod Go without being tied to the PC. Plus I don't have the chops to merit a Helix.
I use a Yamaha MSR100 with my Line 6 Pod Go. Works a treat.
There's one on eBay at the moment for £100 +£12 shipping.
There's a basic eq on it which is helpful for reducing any bass boosts from placing the speaker on the floor / in a corner or for in my case when used on a boomy stage.
Line6 PodXT Pro and the Eris 3.5 (£50 second hand) / Steinberger. Good enough for what I am doing, nice stereo and made a lovely preset with it this evening.
I ordered dB B-Hype 8 and it arrived today- took a few weeks to be in stock.
I've only had a short play and it seems to be up to the job.
Thanks for all advice given.
Acoustic guitar amps likewise but with the addition of a suitable high impedance input to cope with passive piezo pickups.
