Volume Level Help.

[Crash006]

A friend asked me to stop by his work (funeral home) to help with a new podium mic they are having issues with. They had an older mic before buying their new MX400 mic and the issues were the same type of issues but a little worse. The big issue that they were/are having is that the mic is not picking up the speaker and sounds like garbage.

What I found when I arrived was Stereo out fader to 0 (great), Fader for mic set to 0 (great), and the gain set knob hardly turned up (odd), eq level was flat (bad). So I got the mic sounding good and went to turn up the gain and I couldn’t go higher without it ringing out the room. Phantom power was on which is required for the mic.

Understanding their system they run their Yamaha mixer to a Toa amplifier, to a multi channel amplifier to get volume to the other sections of the building. The chapel area has Toa SR-H2S speakers (2) and the other sections of the building are all in ceiling speakers which I can’t see the make but assume they are in-ceiling speakers by Toa.
After some testing here and there the owner mentioned the other rooms, so we turned the volume up in those rooms and off in the chapel. The MX400 mic was incredibly loud and clear in those rooms even when talking in a soft-spoken voice. This is what they want in the chapel area.
This leads me to believe it has something to do with those Toa speakers. However, the other items that are used in the chapel like the iPad, sm58, and keyboard are loud and clear.

You will see in the picture below that the gain is way up on the podium mic but I have it padded and they were happy with the little improvement that we got (mainly the voice clarity).
I left a little confused and frustrated, I know I am not an audio pro but I thought I would have had it fixed super quick.
We hope to eventually test in our church with our system but wanted to reach out here to see if there were any other ideas or thoughts.

[Drew Stephenson]

Is there a ceiling speaker directly over the podium mic?

[Hugh Robjohns]

From all you've said, with the mic sounding fine in other rooms, the main problem is feedback from the Chapel speakers to the mic. The desk is set up fine...

So you need to work through all the usual options to minimise acoustic feedback.

Ceiling speakers are designed to radiate over a wide area, so achieving good attenuation to the mic is inherently tricky.

Perhaps you can turn the ceiling speakers at the mic end of the room down, or off. Or use different PA speakers to throw mic sound down the room away from the mic rather than straight at it!

[Crash006]

Hey drew, no there is no other speakers then the two Toa speakers.

Those are roughly 10-15 feet away and are directed straight out.

The podium is slightly angled but not drastically towards the speaker that one again is 10-15 feet away

Not that this can be used as a good example but the SM58 can get withn a couple feet with no feedback.

[floppydrive]

Just a thought, I notice compression (yellow knob) is used on some channels.
I'm no expert so feel free to ignore me

[Murray B]

Just a thought, I notice compression (yellow knob) is used on some channels.
I'm no expert so feel free to ignore me

Yep, a more sensitive mic + compression turned right up (if the mic is in channel 1) could be the issue, try turning the compression down some / off - it should make a difference.

[Sam Spoons]

Not forgetting the inverse square law, a handheld SM58 at chin level or closer is going to exhibit much better gain before feedback than a podium mic which may be 3 or 4 times further from the source (i.e. speakers mouth).

Add to that the fact that chapels are often very acoustically lively spaces with little in the way of acoustic absorption to tame the reverb. Maybe suggest some discretely place acoustic panels*?

Also, while capacitor mics are no more prone to feedback than a dynamic with the same polar pattern they do usually have a more extended HF which can lead to problems.

I echo the comments WRT compression, you probably don't need any and even if you do it usually causes more problems than it solves in these situations. On the plus side the audience are usually respectfully quiet during any readings/speeches.

* I was in a restaurant recently that was a big open room with high vaulted ceilings and glass on two sides, normally a recipe for loud conversations as people try to remain audible over the ambient clamour. In this case though thanks to considerable acoustic treatment on the ceilings it was a quiet and extremely pleasant dining environment, and 99% of the diners would not have a clue why.

[shufflebeat]

* I was in a restaurant recently… …thanks to considerable acoustic treatment on the ceilings it was a quiet and extremely pleasant dining environment, and 99% of the diners would not have a clue why.

I have a theory that this is one of the major factors leading to the demise of Greens vegetarian restaurant in Withington - decent enough food, a bit dear but nice folks - horrific acoustic that meant me wearing earplugs while eating which isn’t ideal. Eventually it just wasn’t worth the trouble.

Good Lady Wife thought I was nuts, which is topical.

[James Perrett]

eq level was flat (bad).

Eq set flat is good - probably the best place to leave it at the moment for people with fewer sound engineering skills. The same goes for compression - leave it off.

[Crash006]

Just a thought, I notice compression (yellow knob) is used on some channels.
I'm no expert so feel free to ignore me

Yes you are correct that is the mic in question, but it was not affecting the situation. I was almost able to max it. I honestly forgot about it before leaving due to it being clear when i left lol

[Crash006]

Just a thought, I notice compression (yellow knob) is used on some channels.
I'm no expert so feel free to ignore me

Yep, a more sensitive mic + compression turned right up (if the mic is in channel 1) could be the issue, try turning the compression down some / off - it should make a difference.

when i arrived it was off and still no more gain could be placed on the channel.

[Drew Stephenson]

Where is that aux 1 send going?

[ef37a]

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrkgOr ... Uth6.GVyU-

I see the MX400 series of microphones is available in three polar variants, one of which is omni which won't help in this situation if they have bought one?

Dave.

[Crash006]

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrkgOr ... Uth6.GVyU-

I see the MX400 series of microphones is available in three polar variants, one of which is omni which won't help in this situation if they have bought one?

Dave.

They bought the R185 Cardiod option

[Crash006]

Where is that aux 1 send going?

It is going to their live stream system

[Drew Stephenson]

Where is that aux 1 send going?

It is going to their live stream system

Ok, and there's no way that could be feeding back into the system anywhere?

[Crash006]

I was there this morning and we moved the mic to the back tif the room. It was clear, and could provide ample more gain.

With the setting we took it back the front and it was instant ringing.

So it sounds like it’s to close to the speakers. I had him move to the middle, can’t ever be there due to that’s where the casket sits, and it was good there to.

This is a good 10+ feet from the speaker. From the same wall we are out about 4 feet. So we are kind of in a dead spot.

He asked if he should get one of the other capsules. The cardio’s is 135 degrees and there was one that was 100 degrees.

Would that make any difference?

[Hugh Robjohns]

Unlikely. The region of rejection isn't and can't be aimed at the ceiling where the feedback sound is coming from.

If the mic/podium has to be in that location, the speakers need to be moved to the other end of the room, or be replaced with something more appropriately directional.

Its basic acoustics.

[ef37a]

You could try flipping the mics polarity but I have to wonder how much "gain before ring" you need in a funeral place? Surely this comes under the title of "sound reinforcement" and pretty unobtrusive reinforcement at that? Not even the level you would use at say an AGM?

For such a venue and similar places like churches*, meeting halls, the PA principle was always to make the audience believe the sound was coming from the person speaking, not the the PA speakers. Or has the 'game' changed in the last 20 years or so?

Does the system also feed an aid loop and if so is that lacking level from that mic? If so maybe that can be boosted independently of the speaker feed?

*And I mean the actual service not the 6 piece rock band!

Dave.