Looking for a perspective on a microphone/ my use case

[Lemonvoice]

Hi there,

I was wondering if someone could share their thoughts on a microphone for my purposes. My use case: I am mainly using a dynamic mic (Sennheiser E835) for home recording (vocals / acoustic guitar). Pretty okay with the results. I am also using it to talk over discord with friends. I am doing all of this in a tiny space which I can spare for home recording. I‘m running it through an Apollo solo, which I am using as a pre amp.

The thing that bugs me a little is that I need to be very close to the mic to get to decent output levels. Which is okay for me for singing. But I would love to be able to have it a little bit farther away when talking over Discord. I can certainly push it with more gain.

Now I was considering a condenser microphone, which are - that’s my understanding - somewhat more sensitive. Maybe that gives me what I want. So again, if anyone wanted to share their thoughts that would be highly welcome Thanks a lot in advance.

[tacitus]

I usually use a headset if I’m communicating via the computer, but a condenser mike on a desk stand would be as good. Being more sensitive, they tend to pick up more room noise; one reason I pick a headset.

My new iMac has a good mike built in and I did use it while I was waiting for a USB adapter to come. In theory my Audient hardware can use it as a talkback mic, but I can give myself a good talking to without it …

But I’d say a dynamic vocal mike is at the bottom of my list of desirable choices here.

[Drew Stephenson]

I usually use a headset if I’m communicating via the computer, but a condenser mike on a desk stand would be as good. Being more sensitive, they tend to pick up more room noise; one reason I pick a headset.

This is kind of the key point. If you use a more sensitive mic, further away (or even the same mic with the gain turned up), you will pick up more room noise and background noise. Doesn't matter what kind of mic it is.
But is that actually good enough for a Discord chat? What actually happens if you put the mic further away and really crank the gain? Is it still good enough for the job or are you running out of gain?

[Lemonvoice]

Thanks Tacitus, thanks Drew.

@Drew: I am running pretty tight on gain, depending on where I place the mic. Obviously I want it out of the way when talking in Discord. So I put it further away, which let’s me operate keyboard and mouse more easily. Also background noise isn’t so much an issue on Discord.

For vocal recordings I rearrange the microphone and put it in front of me. I can turn down gain, as I move closer to the mic.

The issue is really having to fiddle around with mic placement for Discord to be loud enough and still have enough space to operate mouse and keyboard. That’s why I was thinking maybe a more sensitive mic could help me. As far as I understood, condenser mics would be more sensitive compared to dynamic mics.

[ef37a]

Hi Lemonvoice, I would say that if the E835 gives you the voice quality you like then you are further ahead of the game than many people!
Changing to a capacitor mic of any type will certainly change that quality (could be better of course)

I would suggest you try one of the many inline mic boosters now available. The FetHead is one of the cheaper ones but the one I bought seemed very good.

Such a booster will give you about 20dB more gain to play with. I doubt it will improve the overall noise performance of the whole rig. Apollo kit is pretty good I understand but you will have much more gain. Yes, moving the mic back will change the sound somewhat and allow more room effect to intrude but you can mitigate that effect with the usual deployment of duvets and such. I am sure someone here can find you a link to a relevant SoS article?

Dave.

[Lemonvoice]

Hi Dave, thanks for your response. I had not heared of in line boosters for mics (although I am using a booster pedal for electric guitar ).

These are exactly the insights I was looking for, so your post is very much appreciated.

Room „noise“ isn’t an issue for me, as I don’t have to go for „fidelity“ when chatting over Discord. It’s just me and friends geeking out over songwriting / Cubase / mixing and stuff.

And yes, the Sennheiser might not be the best mic on earth, but I am processing the signal after tracking anyway and I always get to sit the signal nicely in the mix. Plus I got it for free from someone who didn’t need it anymore, which makes it even sweeter

[zenguitar]

I believe the real problem here is your tiny space. As soon as you move the mic further away you are fighting the laws of physics.

Is there a reason why you want the mic further away when talking on Discord?

Andy

[Lemonvoice]

Hi Andy,

The issue is really having to fiddle around with mic placement for Discord to be loud enough and still have enough space to operate mouse and keyboard. That’s why I was thinking maybe a more sensitive mic could help me. As far as I understood, condenser mics would be more sensitive compared to dynamic mics.

I don’t have any issues with room noise / background noise whatsoever.

[zenguitar]

I made no mention whatsoever about room noise/background noise. That is an assumption on your part I'm afraid.

Having the microphone on a suitable stand close to your mouth leaves loads of space free to operate mouse and keyboard.

There is something here that you are assuming but not mentioning, or considering.

The issue is really having to fiddle around with mic placement for Discord to be loud enough and still have enough space to operate mouse and keyboard.

If it's not loud enough... you turn up the gain. So what is preventing you from doing that?

And mic placement is perfectly straightforward. You manage it with no problem for home recording of vocals and acoustic guitar. So what is it about Discord that makes you want to take a different approach, when you have a proven process that works for you.

Please, I am not having a go at you or putting you down. I am asking questions to help direct you through a process of trouble shooting that addresses your problem in full rather than leaping to an assumption about the differences between a dynamic mic and a condenser mic.

Andy

[shufflebeat]

I have a cheap Sony Bluetooth headphone w/mic, not really a headset because no mini-boom, that I use for all online comms because it works. It’s not a radio-ready vocal sound but that’s not an issue.

You have no idea what people are using to listen to you and, as many of us have found out in the last few years, a little room noise in the production can be the difference between intelligibility and mumbled mush if your receiving setup is also less than perfect.

To paraphrase the old political adage - keep your mic close but keep your monitoring transducers closer still.

A cheap BT headset is designed for vocal intelligibility, provides a consistent distance and doesn’t get in the way of keyboard, teacups or gesturing hands. Just don’t forget to take it off when you go to the bathroom.

[ef37a]

Andy, I think the OP's problem is akin to the one my son had when recording classical guitar?
He liked the sound his SM57 gave him (yeah, go figure!) but he had to have it very close, <300mm to get enough level even with the gain on his AI* maxed out. It was therefore hard to avoid clouting the mic.
In his case he could get recording down at -30dBFS and boost them digitally since he was not running in real time. A FetHead allowed him to double the distance.

Lemonvoice has I think the same problem, the AI simply does not have enough gain. BTW when I said "room noise" I really meant the increase in the "acoustics" (invariably poor) of the room hence the reference to duvets and suchwhich.

*Originally a Behringer UMC204HD which does have remarkably good mic pres. He now has a MOTU M4 which is better but still marginal for gain with a 57 and a nylon stringer. He now has a pair of Lewitte 040s and loves them.

I will say however that I used to use a headset when Skyping son but mine was a cheap unit terminating in 3.5mm TRS plugs and interfacing with my laptop via a USB dongle. I think a version with XLR and 1/4" jack would be quite expensive? I now run 'his side' out of my Tannoys and I waffle into a Berry C2 since it is small and has a built in HP filter. All running through my M4.
Dave.

[Arpangel]

You could get a ribbon preamp, to use with your favourite dynamics, it is ironic that a lot of budget mixers, preamps have to be maxed out with dynamics, seeing that they are the type of mic’s that are more likely to be used with budget gear, although the Apollo isn’t a budget interface, and has 65dB of gain, a bit more than most.
I'd always look for 70dB or more on a preamp, to cover all bases.

[Lemonvoice]

If it's not loud enough... you turn up the gain. So what is preventing you from doing that?

And mic placement is perfectly straightforward. You manage it with no problem for home recording of vocals and acoustic guitar. So what is it about Discord that makes you want to take a different approach, when you have a proven process that works for you

Hi Andy, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my question Every reaction is really helping me figuring out on how to optimize my setup!

Now a little bit on why mic placement differs for recording and for talking over Discord: for recording I place the mic table stand right in the middle of the desk, so that I can comfortably sing or play guitar. The PC keyboard and the PC monitor are right behind the mic. That doesn’t bother me while tracking (I am using Cubase iC Pro to operate the transport in this case). I am getting good signal levels this way and gain-wise there is ample headroom left.

On Discord, I want to be able to see the PC screen better and have access to keyboard and mouse. Consequently the mic has to move. I am moving it to the right side, towards my audio interface. That is also where my mouse is. So the mic then sit probably 45 cm away from my mouth at a ca 45 degree angle. That is the zone in which I can run out of gain, depending on how far exactly I have placed the mic and how closely I am sitting at the desk, which also changes slightly during longer Discord sessions.

A headset with mic definitely helps, but as my space is very limited I would like to avoid a second headset, just to reduce „clutter“.

I can also use an insert on UAD console for a little extra gain e.g., a compressor. But depending on if I have a Cubase project open that already uses the DSP processor of my interface (Apollo Solo, which doesn’t give me a lot of processing power) this isn’t always working.

I hope this is making the setup a little clearer I know a photo of my desk would make it easier for everyone to picture it, but I am currently enjoying vacation, so can’t share that now

Again, thank you so much for your comments!

[Drew Stephenson]

A booster is one option, the other thing to look at might be an angle poise stand so that you can get the mic close enough without it fouling the space around your hands?

[ef37a]

You could get a ribbon preamp, to use with your favourite dynamics, it is ironic that a lot of budget mixers, preamps have to be maxed out with dynamics, seeing that they are the type of mic’s that are more likely to be used with budget gear, although the Apollo isn’t a budget interface, and has 65dB of gain, a bit more than most.
I'd always look for 70dB or more on a preamp, to cover all bases.

It's "physics" Tony or more precisely that branch of physics that is electronics.
Almost all AIs* only have a 'One Knob Gain Control' and if the pre amp is given more than about 55dB of gain, most of that gain is crowded into the last 10 or so dgrs of pot rotation making gain setting and matching very tricky. Even the best AIs have to use an expensive "reverse log,D pot" to get anything like a decent amount of control. Of course, these days the absolutely top bllx interfaces use digital gain control with a 1dB or better resolution.

The Apollo having 65dB is unusual and they probably have a very clever, custom designed gain pot.

*In contrast, even budget mixers have pretty quiet pres with say 55-60dB of gain but also a channel fader/knob giving an extra 10dB and also allowing finer control. This is one of the advantages I often cite to peeps on forums but almost inevitably get shouted at for using the 'M' word! Actually our OP might consider a mixer? They crop up very commonly in S/H shops and are dirt cheap.

Dave.

[Arpangel]

You could get a ribbon preamp, to use with your favourite dynamics, it is ironic that a lot of budget mixers, preamps have to be maxed out with dynamics, seeing that they are the type of mic’s that are more likely to be used with budget gear, although the Apollo isn’t a budget interface, and has 65dB of gain, a bit more than most.
I'd always look for 70dB or more on a preamp, to cover all bases.

It's "physics" Tony or more precisely that branch of physics that is electronics.
Almost all AIs* only have a 'One Knob Gain Control' and if the pre amp is given more than about 55dB of gain, most of that gain is crowded into the last 10 or so dgrs of pot rotation making gain setting and matching very tricky. Even the best AIs have to use an expensive "reverse log,D pot" to get anything like a decent amount of control. Of course, these days the absolutely top bllx interfaces use digital gain control with a 1dB or better resolution.

The Apollo having 65dB is unusual and they probably have a very clever, custom designed gain pot.

*In contrast, even budget mixers have pretty quiet pres with say 55-60dB of gain but also a channel fader/knob giving an extra 10dB and also allowing finer control. This is one of the advantages I often cite to peeps on forums but almost inevitably get shouted at for using the 'M' word! Actually our OP might consider a mixer? They crop up very commonly in S/H shops and are dirt cheap.

Dave.

This is interesting, I have four preamps made by my late friend Mike Skeet, I don’t know what I’d do without them, they are the best I’ve ever heard.
They have a minimum of 75dB of gain, with no "bunching" on stepped gain controls, tons of headroom, and extremely low noise. Typical setting for a dynamic is around 12 o'clock.
Mike showed his design to the mixer manufacturer Audio Developments, they said they couldn’t produce it for their mixers as the cost would be too high, Mike said it was just a basic 60’s design done "properly"
Mike was always talking about "virtual earth" designs, I didn’t understand it.

[Lemonvoice]

You could get a ribbon preamp, to use with your favourite dynamics

Thanks Arpangel! Another option that I am going to explore Much appreciated!

Not sure how costly that would be.

Also, still wondering if a condenser mic would give me a louder signal vs a dynamic at equal gain levels and so be an option to further explore?

[Lemonvoice]

A booster is one option, the other thing to look at might be an angle poise stand so that you can get the mic close enough without it fouling the space around your hands?

Yes, that is also something I am going to explore. Thanks for the tip, Drew!

[Arpangel]

You could get a ribbon preamp, to use with your favourite dynamics

Thanks Arpangel! Another option that I am going to explore Much appreciated!

Not sure how costly that would be.

Also, still wondering if a condenser mic would give me a louder signal vs a dynamic at equal gain levels and so be an option to further explore?

I think generally, a condenser should give a hotter signal, you’re right, ribbon preamps can be expensive, it may not be worth it, the money better being spent on another mic.
The AEA preamps have a max gain of 85dB!

[ef37a]

You could get a ribbon preamp, to use with your favourite dynamics, it is ironic that a lot of budget mixers, preamps have to be maxed out with dynamics, seeing that they are the type of mic’s that are more likely to be used with budget gear, although the Apollo isn’t a budget interface, and has 65dB of gain, a bit more than most.
I'd always look for 70dB or more on a preamp, to cover all bases.

It's "physics" Tony or more precisely that branch of physics that is electronics.
Almost all AIs* only have a 'One Knob Gain Control' and if the pre amp is given more than about 55dB of gain, most of that gain is crowded into the last 10 or so dgrs of pot rotation making gain setting and matching very tricky. Even the best AIs have to use an expensive "reverse log,D pot" to get anything like a decent amount of control. Of course, these days the absolutely top bllx interfaces use digital gain control with a 1dB or better resolution.

The Apollo having 65dB is unusual and they probably have a very clever, custom designed gain pot.

*In contrast, even budget mixers have pretty quiet pres with say 55-60dB of gain but also a channel fader/knob giving an extra 10dB and also allowing finer control. This is one of the advantages I often cite to peeps on forums but almost inevitably get shouted at for using the 'M' word! Actually our OP might consider a mixer? They crop up very commonly in S/H shops and are dirt cheap.

Dave.

This is interesting, I have four preamps made by my late friend Mike Skeet, I don’t know what I’d do without them, they are the best I’ve ever heard.
They have a minimum of 75dB of gain, with no "bunching" on stepped gain controls, tons of headroom, and extremely low noise. Typical setting for a dynamic is around 12 o'clock.
Mike showed his design to the mixer manufacturer Audio Developments, they said they couldn’t produce it for their mixers as the cost would be too high, Mike said it was just a basic 60’s design done "properly"
Mike was always talking about "virtual earth" designs, I didn’t understand it.

Multi-position rotary switched precision resistors was the "pro" way to do it Tony before digitals. Very expensive. You need a lot of switch positions and a very good quality switch and the whole lot really has to be hand assembled.
Then you are almost forced to include a gain 'trim' control to fill in the gain 'gaps'. MORE dosh!

"Virtual earth" amps? Most mic pres are 'voltage amplifiers' with an input impedance of 1k or more but there is a school of thought that uses a 'current input'. Never seen a schematic, would love to.

Dave.

[Arpangel]

You could get a ribbon preamp, to use with your favourite dynamics, it is ironic that a lot of budget mixers, preamps have to be maxed out with dynamics, seeing that they are the type of mic’s that are more likely to be used with budget gear, although the Apollo isn’t a budget interface, and has 65dB of gain, a bit more than most.
I'd always look for 70dB or more on a preamp, to cover all bases.

It's "physics" Tony or more precisely that branch of physics that is electronics.
Almost all AIs* only have a 'One Knob Gain Control' and if the pre amp is given more than about 55dB of gain, most of that gain is crowded into the last 10 or so dgrs of pot rotation making gain setting and matching very tricky. Even the best AIs have to use an expensive "reverse log,D pot" to get anything like a decent amount of control. Of course, these days the absolutely top bllx interfaces use digital gain control with a 1dB or better resolution.

The Apollo having 65dB is unusual and they probably have a very clever, custom designed gain pot.

*In contrast, even budget mixers have pretty quiet pres with say 55-60dB of gain but also a channel fader/knob giving an extra 10dB and also allowing finer control. This is one of the advantages I often cite to peeps on forums but almost inevitably get shouted at for using the 'M' word! Actually our OP might consider a mixer? They crop up very commonly in S/H shops and are dirt cheap.

Dave.

This is interesting, I have four preamps made by my late friend Mike Skeet, I don’t know what I’d do without them, they are the best I’ve ever heard.
They have a minimum of 75dB of gain, with no "bunching" on stepped gain controls, tons of headroom, and extremely low noise. Typical setting for a dynamic is around 12 o'clock.
Mike showed his design to the mixer manufacturer Audio Developments, they said they couldn’t produce it for their mixers as the cost would be too high, Mike said it was just a basic 60’s design done "properly"
Mike was always talking about "virtual earth" designs, I didn’t understand it.

Multi-position rotary switched precision resistors was the "pro" way to do it Tony before digitals. Very expensive. You need a lot of switch positions and a very good quality switch and the whole lot really has to be hand assembled.
Then you are almost forced to include a gain 'trim' control to fill in the gain 'gaps'. MORE dosh!

"Virtual earth" amps? Most mic pres are 'voltage amplifiers' with an input impedance of 1k or more but there is a school of thought that uses a 'current input'. Never seen a schematic, would love to.

Dave.

Mike may have published some of his designs in an article, I'm not sure, I'll have a look, all my preamps are on bread-board, very primitive !

[MarkOne]

Being on a breadboard doesn't make a design primitive. It might look like it, but it may contain really elegant circuit topography.

Breadboards are just a way of glueing all the bits together. Circuit boards are a cleaner nicer way of doing it. Integrating it all into a single chip more so.

Don't forget that loads of high end valve gear is all hand-wired underneath the chassis

[Arpangel]

Being on a breadboard doesn't make a design primitive. It might look like it, but it may contain really elegant circuit topography.

Breadboards are just a way of glueing all the bits together. Circuit boards are a cleaner nicer way of doing it. Integrating it all into a single chip more so.

Don't forget that loads of high end valve gear is all hand-wired underneath the chassis

Yes "it sounds good"

[James Perrett]

all my preamps are on bread-board, very primitive !

I suspect you mean Veroboard rather than a breadboard. It is a good way to build one-offs.

Virtual earth probably refers to the mixer - this is the standard way that summing is done in a mixer where the voltage at the summing point is very close to the ground voltage. If you've ever looked at an inverting op-amp circuit you will have seen a virtual earth.

[Hugh Robjohns]

The DIY mixer Mike showed me, years ago, used preamps built using purpose-built SSM2019 preamp chips with, I think 70dB gain per stage. (It might have been the 2017 chip). His construction pretty much followed the manufacturer application notes.

(The design is was very similar to the DAV BG1, too).

NE5532s were used for standard virtual-earth mixing and output stages.

As far as I remember, there was nothing revolutionary involved, just practical and pragmatic engineering with good attention to detail.

I'm not surprised Audio Developments weren't interested. The chip cost is much higher than a couple of transistors and an opamp...

I think the THAT1510 is an updated, better-performing drop-in replacement for the SSM2017/ SSM2019/ INA217 preamp chips.