Mixer for multiple brass instruments with FX live

[EugeneColl]

Good afternoon!
I have a particular situation in my hands, and would like to pick your brains about this idea:

So I'm in a rock band, and I play both 2nd guitar, sax and trombone (not all at the same time!!). Apart from the cool "natural" sounds one can get out of those two wind instruments, I've started experimenting using guitar FX pedals on the sax with enthusiastic results from band mates and crowd.

The sax setup is: sax>SM57 mounted on the bell via a snare mic mount> XLR radio transmitter+receiver> ART tube preamp > jack lead > Line6 Pod go > main out (L+R) into PA.

Now people are eager to hear what distortions/whammy/wha/phasers/octaver could sound like on the 'bone.

The vast majority of clip-on mics for trumpet/trombone usually necessitate +48v phantom power. The ART preamp does that, but it only has 1 input, 1 output.

So, after making a short story long, I was thinking of getting a normal small 4 channel analogue mixer on which I'll send both, clean, line signals. Now, I can only imagine two ways to hook the Line6 FX pedalboard to the mixer:

- Send a mono out from the mixer to the Line6 input and then from there to the main PA
- Set up an AUX send stereo channel for the Line6.

Any other ideas?

Since I'm not only using reverbs and delays, but pitch shifting, overdrives and wahs, do you think the sound would be clear?

(Using a small mixer instead of two separate preamps would also be useful for a separate personal monitor on stage)

[Drew Stephenson]

I'd keep it simple and just take a mono out from the mixer to the line 6.

[shufflebeat]

I'd keep it simple and just take a mono out from the mixer to the line 6.

That’s a valid approach but would require you either to keep the Line 6 near the mixer or, if you want to be switching it, send signal from mic > mixer (XLR) > Line 6 (TS) > mixer (XLR), which is a faff.

Another option might be a mini-mixer (in ascending price-points, Yamaha, Behringer Flow 8, A&H) on a stand (alternatively Elite Acoustics Stompmix) and the Line 6 on the floor within stomping distance. If you have appropriate mics on the instruments then a basic EQ might all that’s required.

I wonder if the collective minds in the design dept. at Orchid Electronics (John) could be engaged on an A/B box, might have value.

[Drew Stephenson]

Sorry, to be clear, I meant a mini mixer in my post, not the front of house mixer.
Something like a behringer 802 would do the job.

[Dave Rowles]

Any small mixer that has the features you want will do the job. I'm a fan of small A&H mixers, particularly the ZED-10 because of the routing options.

Another option is to get an inline phantom provider such as the XVIVE P1 or similar, and then you can plug in whatever mic you want.

[EugeneColl]

Thank you for the quick replies!

Yes, one idea is to get a mini-mixer (like a Behringer/A&H/Yamaha) either on the floor or clamped to my vocal mic stand for the shortest routing between that and the Line6 FX.

Mic for the trombone will be (next year):
Clip on mic (Beta 98/H maybe ?) >bodypack>transm/rec>mixer

Mic for the sax will be:
piezo pickup drilled into the sax neck>bodypack>transm/rec>mixer

The whole sax piezo pickup idea is to avoid the issues related to bell-mounted mics on sax (imbalance between low bell notes and middle register ones, key pad thump, stage noise bleeding). The sound won't be 100% "true", but since I'm going through FX anyways it doesn't really matter, as it'll be more of a RATM than a Blue Note recording

@shufflebeat do you know if there is any A/B box on the market with XLR inputs?
Putting that before the preamp I could keep my current setup, and would only need to create trombone patches on the Line6 with a lower overall volume, to match the sax ones.

[Arpangel]

I think an AB box with a couple of volume pedals, gives you great creative flexibility, at your feet, no fiddling with a mixer.

[Sam Spoons]

I've successfully miked Saxes and Trombones (and other brass) with AKG clip on mics (C419/C519) if you were prepared to swap the mic from sax to 'bone you could work with a single input?

[Philbo King]

A small mixer with an insert on a mono main out would be ideal for this; allowing you to use the same pedal board on various instruments.

But it's functionally equivalent to just taking the mixer outout to feed the pedals.

[ef37a]

I will also put in a vote for a ZED 10 FX or larger.

I spent yesterday on Skype with my son in France helping him understand the FX and AUX functions of his ZED 10FX (BTW "fx" send is post chan fader and "aux" is pre fader)

The Ten does not have a dedicated FX Return input but we found the Replay jacks next to the USB port served as well, just no EQ or balance on them.

The mixer has two channels with a very high Z, 10M option and a 26dB gain boost on those inputs.

One of his problems with his lead singer/guitarist is that he wants to play a micc'ed up "Oud" an acoustic instrument and son was playing with the mid EQ to notch out feedback. Worked pretty well.

The Behringer mixers are, er, ok but be careful with the LT power connectors. Zeds are IEC mains in.

Dave.

[Murray B]

I think the mixer options are covered, so I'll chime in with a recommendation to use an IEM system if you aren't already. Running overdrive and a wah on a mic'ed instrument could go south really quickly if have a monitor speaker pointing in it's general direction, sometimes even the FOH can be problematic depending on the room.

Maybe try putting a suitably thresholded noise gate into the effects path if the unit has that option to help keep the ringing down when you aren't playing.

Experiments with doing a similar thing by one of my band mates on an mic'ed accordion were eventually abandoned because of the feedback issues it was creating live. This was in the times before affordable IEM systems so we didn't have that option as a work around.

Is thresholded a word? - Anyway hopefully it makes sense.

[ef37a]

Another point in favour of the ZED series IMHO is that they have only rotary controls. These I consider far better than linear faders in a "band" situation as they are far less likely to be bumped and not nearly so attractive to any passing toe rag to fiddle with!

Faders are also less tolerant of lager and more expensive to get fixed if they do fail. (yes! I know P&Gs are pretty indestructible but you tend not to find them in £300 mixer?)

Dave.

[EugeneColl]

I think the mixer options are covered, so I'll chime in with a recommendation to use an IEM system if you aren't already. Running overdrive and a wah on a mic'ed instrument could go south really quickly if have a monitor speaker pointing in it's general direction, sometimes even the FOH can be problematic depending on the room.

Yes, it's something we are working on!
Over the past 3/4 gigs I did have some feedback from overdriving the sax, but there is a noise gate patch on the Line6 unit, so I'm working on making it functional.

There's been an interesting development though. I found out Millenium sells a Phantom power supply unit, namely the PPB2, which sports dual XLR inputs and outputs. I could run both instruments to that unit (which would supply phantom power to the trombone clip-on mic), then 2x XLR-Jack leads to a standard ABY splitter pedal, a jack from there to the Line6. Then I could toggle between the two signals.

Is the conversion from XLR output to jack input problematic, soundwise? Would the loss of quality and/or volume noticeable ?

[Sam Spoons]

Nweither the SM57 or the Piezo* need phantom power so how do you think a dual phantom power supply is going to help?

* The piezo is likely to be unbalanced so won't be happy with spook power (and, IME, if you put a voltage across a piezo transducer you turn it into a buzzer...)

[ef37a]

Nweither the SM57 or the Piezo* need phantom power so how do you think a dual phantom power supply is going to help?

* The piezo is likely to be unbalanced so won't be happy with spook power (and, IME, if you put a voltage across a piezo transducer you turn it into a buzzer...)

I agree with all that Sam but if OP really is trying to get balanced mic sources into unbalanced jacks a couple of these...https://www.amazon.co.uk/Soundlab-G132C ... 7853&psc=1
will do the job. There are more expensive versions from the likes of Shure.

Just had a thought Sam? Maybe the chap thinks a phantom power supply is also some form of pre amp? I have had peeps think that before on forums.

Dave.

[EugeneColl]

Yes, my mistake, I did think that phantom power unit supplied some sort of preamp, but it definitly doesn't.
And sending phantom power to a condenser mic that doesn't need it also a bad idea to start with. The 9-5 is definitely draining my brains here!

So it's back to the small mixer. I like the ef37a's suggestion of the Microphone Matching Transformer lead, I might get 2 of those just in case as a backup.

Thanks for all replies!

[ef37a]

Yes, my mistake, I did think that phantom power unit supplied some sort of preamp, but it definitly doesn't.
And sending phantom power to a condenser mic that doesn't need it also a bad idea to start with. The 9-5 is definitely draining my brains here!

So it's back to the small mixer. I like the ef37a's suggestion of the Microphone Matching Transformer lead, I might get 2 of those just in case as a backup.

Thanks for all replies!

Just to be clear? The transformers take the low impedance mic level signal and transform it up to about 'guitar level'. They deliver quite a decent signal from an SM57 into a guitar amp. More than enough gain to feed back!

My son used one with a 57 into a looper pedal then an interface to record.

Dave.

[Stuart79]

Radial Voco Loco?

[EugeneColl]

Hi Stuart79, the Vocoloco is a very good solution for a single brass instrument (/mic line), so it just isn't the best for me right now.

Update: to avoid using phantom power on a dynamic mic, I've decided to put aside the SM57 and get another condenser clip on mic for the saxophone (just like trombone), and running phantom power on the analogue mixer.
So I'll send both into a Behringer UB802.

As stated above the idea is to send an aux out to the Line6 guitar multiFx and then send two jack leads from the main out of that into a stereo channel on the mixer, and then blend dry mic and FX to taste.

So I'll be sending a line out signal into a guitar pedal FX (which is designed for instrument level). Should I put a DI between the multiFx and the mixer to balance that signal?

[Sam Spoons]

There really is no issue with using an SM57 into an input with phantom power, it simply won't notice it.

[EugeneColl]

Howdy!

After some time I got to finally assemble the rig, and it sounds pretty good!
So I'm using a Phonic 6-channel small mixer, running the Line6 PodGo from the Aux send back into the stereo channel 3/4, to have better control on it. To be completely wireless I just got a clip-on mic+bodypack+ XLR wireless transmitter for the trombone, and I keep using the SM58+ XLR wireless transmitter (mounted on the bell of the sax with a snare mount).
This means I don't need to use phantom power in the mixer.

The aux (EFX on this one) is post-fader so I can't have fully wet sounds, but to be fair I don't really need them. Had to recalibrate the EQ for the patches on the Line6, but so far the results are quite good (at least in the rehearsal space).

[EugeneColl]

I've velcroed the whole thing + extension lead to a Palmer 60L pedalboard, and it's a heavy-ish b*stard, yet a much more mobile rig now.






Edited to display images - Andy

[zenguitar]

The images failed because you linked to the web page displaying the image. If you right click on the image on that page you will have an option to copy image address, that's the one you need.



Andy

[EugeneColl]

The images failed because you linked to the web page displaying the image. If you right click on the image on that page you will have an option to copy image address, that's the one you need.



Andy

Thank you!
I'll try again:
https://i.ibb.co/thtWj1F/Whats-App-Imag ... -41-05.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/bHbGSHc/Whats-App-Imag ... -41-04.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/tcQzFxn/Whats-App-Imag ... -38-05.jpg

[zenguitar]

The images failed because you linked to the web page displaying the image. If you right click on the image on that page you will have an option to copy image address, that's the one you need.



Andy

Thank you!
I'll try again:
https://i.ibb.co/thtWj1F/Whats-App-Imag ... -41-05.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/bHbGSHc/Whats-App-Imag ... -41-04.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/tcQzFxn/Whats-App-Imag ... -38-05.jpg

Scroll back up and look once more. I edited your original post to display the images correctly.

And your second attempt failed in exactly the same way

Andy