Spendor BC2 / BCII

[Arpangel]

When I first heard the K+H KH300 they sounded beyond fabulous, enough to tempt me to buy them, but, they are very room dependant...

I think you mean the K&H O300.... the predecessor to the Neumann KH310.

I'm intrigued at what you mean by 'room dependent'. All speakers are room dependent, inherently.

Perhaps you mean they sound detailed and revealing in a good acoustic, but confused in a bad one... whereas a poor speaker sounds consistently confused everywhere? That's certainly been my experience over the years.

Going back to the BC1s, they were genuine state-of-the-art monitor quality speakers in their day, and they still sound quite decent today... but a bit delicate by modern standards and with a rounded top end despite the supertweeter.

But the state-of-the-art in speaker design today is leagues ahead of where it was in the 1970s, particularly in terms of all forms of harmonic and anharmonic distortions, as well as dynamic linearity, dispersion, power handling, bandwidth, active crossovers, DSP correction and protection, cabinet construction and materials, and so much more.

...and just because a manufacturer writes 'monitor' on the box, doesn't mean it is....

That’s it, the 0300.
We used them in the control room at the Wigmore Hall, and we were blown away by them, Mike bought a pair straight away.
He called me up a few days later and asked me to have a listen at his place, as he wasn’t sure about them. He’d been using the ATC SCM20 PRO's with the ATC subwoofer as a yardstick, which I liked a lot, the 0300 sounded fine except the bass was very uncontrolled, not tight and accurate like the ATC's, some speakers suit some rooms better than others, he had a bit of acoustic treatment in that room, but nothing significant. The BBC control room at the Wigmore was heavily treated.
He persevered with the 0300’s until he died, but he was never 100% happy with them, not the speakers fault, just not a good choice for his place.

[Aled Hughes]

Thanks for the input everyone,

The rattling/buzzing is a curious one - it's non-existent on some material.

To be honest I doubt they'll be staying long - they've been standing unused in the studio meeting room for years, so I thought I'd give them a blast, but my small home studio room is now looking like a speaker showroom with these, a 5.1 Adam setup, a Mixcube and a pair of small ceiling speakers! They have confirmed though that I'm not really happy with the Adams for stereo (which is all the important paid work that I do!).

To be fair, I purchased the Adams as a fairly cost effective way of having a half-decent surround/Atmos setup. The Spendors have nailed it home that I'm going to have to sort out a separate stereo system for my proper work... but I don't think the Spendors are the answer to that.

My current thinking is Abacus C-Box 4, some form of Neumann rig, or - preferably and hopefully - I could offer to purchase the smaller ATC SCM20 + amp from the smaller studio for my place (again they're not being used much - I think there's a slight issue with either the amp or one tweeter, and the engineer who usually works in that room prefers his Neumanns anyway). I think that would be the ideal solution.

But back to the Spendors - I'm listening to the phenomenal sounding Goat Rodeo Sessions album on them now and the poor Adams don't really stand a chance, and the buzzing is not evident in the Spendors either. There really is a quite magical depth to them. Again, to be fair to the Adams, the Spendors are spaced mouch wider apart, which I guess will sound superficially more impressive when switching speakers.

I also found a couple of old reviews of the BC2... I guess the definition of "small speakers" has changed over the years

...crossover points at 45Hz and 14KHz
...

frequency response: 60Hz -14KHz

Fascinating... if they top out and crossover at 14kHz... what are they crossing over into?! The supertweeter I guess, but why isn't it contributing much?

[ajay_m]

Re: rattling/buzzing. I'd feed a sinewave signal into the amp and sweep it to see if it's something vibrating or potentially a driver issue, which should become fairly clear. There's a great free phone app called "PA Tone" which is useful for this sort of thing, assuming your phone has a headphone out jack, though a USB to phono adaptor is only a few quid.

At Gearfest this year I had the opportunity to listen to the full range of Neumann monitors and although you could hear that the little KH80s were valiantly trying to overcome the laws of physics, (and doing a pretty good job), the larger models were breathtakingly, uncomprisingly accurate. While the KH310s did have some subtle bass extension over the smaller models, from the KH120 upwards the differences were pretty subtle.

I don't recall that the room was fully treated though, either, so not an absolutely perfect listening environment. Still, it really felt to me that the monitor selection algorithm came down to:-

1. Do you like coloured monitors? e.g forward midrange, accentuated treble etc - then there's a wide range of products available and you probably need to choose something that matches your personal preference. You're choosing monitors for their ability to look into the mix, not as an uncoloured reference.

2. Do you want neutral monitors?. Then pick something from the Neumann range and be done with it. You won't endlessly wonder if its your monitors or your room because it'll be your room if there's any kind of colouration/bass management issue.

However in terms of technical progress since the era of the Spendors, the main breakthroughs have been probably the advent of neodymium magnets, which are far, far more powerful than the magnets available back then, and the use of ferrofluids. These mean that the controlling magnetic flux is orders of magnitude larger, so that the cone is controlled much more precisely. We also understand a lot more about complex modal vibrations across driver surfaces I think, and can model a design and explore optimum solutions on the computer rather than using trial and error.

Another significant enhancement is that high power amplifiers are much more common now; class D amplifiers can produce hundreds of watts efficiently, whereas back then it wasn't uncommon to only have a few tens of watts of power available through a class AB amp, where the limiting factor was the availability of high power transistors; at the time, the 2N3055 was about the best you had, high power MOSFETs didn't exist.

Hence you can now design speakers where efficiency simply isn't a consideration, whereas back then you needed a design that would work with fairly modest input power and yet produce an acceptable SPL.

Finally we have sophisticated software to correct room anomalies, and although this is no substitute for a properly acoustic treated listening space, it certainly helps to even out the more extreme peaks and troughs at the lower end.

But as the Stereophile review of the BC1s back in 1978 pointed out, these speakers 'capture the gestalt of live music like few systems', despite a resonance peak at 12KHz. Since my old ears pretty much give up after 8-9KHz anyway, they'd probably sound even better to me now then they would have back then!

[Hugh Robjohns]

Fascinating... if they top out and crossover at 14kHz... what are they crossing over into?! The supertweeter I guess, but why isn't it contributing much?

It's a good question!

The official measurements show quite a pronounced roll off above 14kHz despite the supertweeter. I dread to think what it's like with a defective supertweeter.... although I know a lot of owners didn't notice!

Of course, these things were designed from a BBC mindset of there being nothing useful above 15kHz anyway....

[Arpangel]

This buzzing sound, could be an intermittent voice coil rubbing issue, I’ve had this happen to a pair of Tannoys I had, it only happened on certain types of music that accentuated the problem, mainly piano, or things with a pure tone, like choirs, voices. Had to send them for repair in the end.

[James Perrett]

This buzzing sound, could be an intermittent voice coil rubbing issue, I’ve had this happen to a pair of Tannoys I had, it only happened on certain types of music that accentuated the problem, mainly piano, or things with a pure tone, like choirs, voices. Had to send them for repair in the end.

I had the same thing on one of my Tannoys. It turned out to be some corrosion inside the tweeter which meant that the coil was rubbing on the magnet. It was only obvious where there wasn't too much high frequency energy. Any cymbals would completely disguise the problem.

Fortunately the tweeter diaphragms on mine are field replaceable so I just removed the diaphragm and removed the corrosion in the voice coil gap.

[Aled Hughes]

At Gearfest this year I had the opportunity to listen to the full range of Neumann monitors and although you could hear that the little KH80s were valiantly trying to overcome the laws of physics, (and doing a pretty good job), the larger models were breathtakingly, uncomprisingly accurate. While the KH310s did have some subtle bass extension over the smaller models, from the KH120 upwards the differences were pretty subtle.

Thanks. Yes I've used KH310 and liked them very much. Same with KH120.

1. Do you like coloured monitors? e.g forward midrange, accentuated treble etc - then there's a wide range of products available and you probably need to choose something that matches your personal preference. You're choosing monitors for their ability to look into the mix, not as an uncoloured reference.

My preference is ATC, which is what I use in the main studio. Which is why I'm probably just going to have to get some for this room too

The fact that I have a surround setup in there as well does complicate things though - I want a good 2.0 stereo setup to go alongside it, or at a push it could be 2.1 providing I use a sub with a separate LFE input for the surround rig - I'm not having two subs there. I'm not sure I'd be totally happy with KH80 or 120 without a sub, so the KH310 is the Neumann I'd consider, but that's a bit big to fit in among the surround speakers.

The aforementioned ATC SCM20 is the easiest and best solution I think, if I can work it.

[Arpangel]

This buzzing sound, could be an intermittent voice coil rubbing issue, I’ve had this happen to a pair of Tannoys I had, it only happened on certain types of music that accentuated the problem, mainly piano, or things with a pure tone, like choirs, voices. Had to send them for repair in the end.

I had the same thing on one of my Tannoys. It turned out to be some corrosion inside the tweeter which meant that the coil was rubbing on the magnet. It was only obvious where there wasn't too much high frequency energy. Any cymbals would completely disguise the problem.

Fortunately the tweeter diaphragms on mine are field replaceable so I just removed the diaphragm and removed the corrosion in the voice coil gap.

You’ve described it exactly, it was only on "smooth" sounds you could hear it.

[Drew Stephenson]

Adding the KH750 to my KH80s has definitely improved their performance even before the room correction (which did a similar job). It just takes all the heavy lifting away from the 80s and really allows them to shine.
Shifting the sub around a bit also sorted out the big 160Hz dip in the room as well.

[Arpangel]

I was thinking of giving those KH120’s a go, but I’m really not sure about that sound, I'd have to borrow some to be sure.
I thought about the KH150’s, but hang on, may as well not mess about and get the 310's! I'm just not sure, my instinct tells me I’d end up taking them back, after my experience at Mikes, as my room is worse than his was.
At least I know my current speakers, and they sound "OK" in here.

[Hugh Robjohns]

The KH310s are a step up from the O300s in several important ways...

...but there's really no point in blowing a big wedge on decent monitors if you're not going to treat the room. I'd stick with your Behringers. They clearly already do all you need.

[Arpangel]

The KH310s are a step up from the O300s in several important ways...

...but there's really no point in blowing a big wedge on decent monitors if you're not going to treat the room. I'd stick with your Behringers. They clearly already do all you need.

Yes, good advice, I wish Mike was still around, I could have borrowed his.
If I remember correctly, he did bring them to my place in London, and they sounded much better in my room, which was bigger with a 15ft ceiling, his room was very small, and there was a lot of boundary reinforcement in the bass going on, and the sound would change a lot if I moved around

[Aled Hughes]

Adding the KH750 to my KH80s has definitely improved their performance even before the room correction (which did a similar job). It just takes all the heavy lifting away from the 80s and really allows them to shine.
Shifting the sub around a bit also sorted out the big 160Hz dip in the room as well.

I haven't properly looked into it, but I guess the KH750 could be pressed into service for both the 2.1 and 5.1 seeing as it has separate analog and digital inputs - I could drive the digital inputs from my TC BMC2 monitor controller for the 2.1 system.

So many options! (and the Spendors have nothing to to with it so this is a bit of a thread hijack!). It's so easy to round in circles with these things. I had initially decided that a pair of Adam A8H would be the main pair, working as LR in the surround system and as a stand alone 2.0 stereo system, but it would still be the same family sound as the little A4Vs I have, and I can't really stomach spending over £2k on something that I know I wouldn't be totally happy with!

I still think the ATC SCM20 are the best bet for consistency between studios, IF I can cut a good deal and there's no problems with them.

[Arpangel]

I still think the ATC SCM20 are the best bet for consistency between studios, IF I can cut a good deal and there's no problems with them.

I think that’s why they sounded good at Mikes, they are very tolerant of not so good rooms, and tend to sound fine in most places.

[Aled Hughes]

I still think the ATC SCM20 are the best bet for consistency between studios, IF I can cut a good deal and there's no problems with them.

I think that’s why they sounded good at Mikes, they are very tolerant of not so good rooms, and tend to sound fine in most places.

Not sure what you mean here - both room are well treated (well, it's ongoing in the small room, I'm awaiting delivery of four massive bass traps and some ceiling clouds, but it's not bad as it is.)

By 'consistency' I meant having the same brand of monitor in both rooms.

[Nazard]

From the Spendor technical manual, axial responses for the BCI, II and III.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ace1gtrn ... zxxec&dl=0

[Arpangel]

I still think the ATC SCM20 are the best bet for consistency between studios, IF I can cut a good deal and there's no problems with them.

I think that’s why they sounded good at Mikes, they are very tolerant of not so good rooms, and tend to sound fine in most places.

Not sure what you mean here - both room are well treated (well, it's ongoing in the small room, I'm awaiting delivery of four massive bass traps and some ceiling clouds, but it's not bad as it is.)

By 'consistency' I meant having the same brand of monitor in both rooms.

Got it, although the SCM20 tends to be very tolerant of untreated rooms.
People don't seem to get it when I say "some speakers suite some rooms more than others" I've always thought that was a fundamental consideration when choosing monitors or speakers of any kind!

[Hugh Robjohns]

...but it would still be the same family sound as the little A4Vs I have, and I can't really stomach spending over £2k on something that I know I wouldn't be totally happy with!

One of my issues with ADAMs of old (I've not had a serious listen to the newer models) is that there was no consistent family sound across the full range from large to small models — not like you get with, for example, ATCs, PMCs, Neumanns, or Genelec. The smaller ones are quieter and don't have as much bass, but the character in those marques remains pretty consistent. I didn't find that with ADAMs, generally.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I think that’s why they sounded good at Mikes, they are very tolerant of not so good rooms, and tend to sound fine in most places.

That's not really how the physics works...

Speakers with a very consistent and even off-axis spectrum tend to work better in acoustically poor rooms, because the reflected sound energy power spectrum sounds relatively neutral and benign.

Speakers with poor off-axis responses can sound a bit weird in reflective rooms because the lumpy off-axis sound distorts the power spectrum when it is reflected back to the listening position.

[Aled Hughes]

...but it would still be the same family sound as the little A4Vs I have, and I can't really stomach spending over £2k on something that I know I wouldn't be totally happy with!

One of my issues with ADAMs of old (I've not had a serious listen to the newer models) is that there was no consistent family sound across the full range from large to small models — not like you get with, for example, ATCs, PMCs, Neumanns, or Genelec. The smaller ones are quieter and don't have as much bass, but the character in those marques remains pretty consistent. I didn't find that with ADAMs, generally.

Thanks Hugh. I've only ever heard these A4Vs I have, so can't comment there. All the reviews have mentioned that these newer A-range sound better/more neutral than the old ones, and I don't find them bad at all to be honest - I can work fine on them, and they give a lot of information for a small 4" speaker.
The SOS review of the A7V and A8H were very positive, and I have no reason to doubt them. But as I said previously - the reason I went for them was because of surround practicalities and budget. If I was just looking at a stereo system, I wouldn't have gone for the Adams... and now I am just looking for a stereo system

So in case someone skims over this thread and thinks I'm slating the little Adams - I'm not, I like them too!

[ajay_m]

I did chuckle over the reviews here https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... or/reviews

where one reviewer claims he replaced a pair of KH120s with Tannoy Gold 5s because he preferred them. I do own a pair of the Tannoys mind you and they are surprisingly good, quite neutral and the concentric tweeters are great when used nearfield as the sound emanates from a point source effectively, which does produce a very coherent soundstage.

But my room is completely untreated and much though I would love a pair of KH310s, and, in the scheme of things, they're pretty reasonable, I mean £3,100 from Thomann for a pair isn't crazy money for such a high quality piece of kit, but it'd be pointless unless I completely sort out the room acoustics, which ain't gonna happen.

However it being lunchtime I took a break from work and swapped the Tapco S5s (which are on shelves on the back wall) with the Tannoys (which were nearfield on the desk) and the 'tubbiness' I'd noted in the Tannoys around 160Hz disappears but now I hear it with the S5s - of course, this is going to be the major room resonant mode front to back, and with the Tannoys relocated to the back wall I'm pretty much doubling the distance between speaker and rear wall. And an 80Hz resonance is much less objectionable.

Can't turn the volume up much at present as my partner is working just downstairs from me and will probably prefer peace and quiet, but I'll try and do a more serious listening session later on if possible - it's certainly astonishing how much the room, and indeed the position in the room, affects the sound from speakers. And of course with hifi speakers these tend to be in the lounge, which is probably a larger listening space than most people's studios, so it's possibly unsurprising that in that context they can sound better than monitors.

[James Perrett]

However it being lunchtime I took a break from work and swapped the Tapco S5s (which are on shelves on the back wall) with the Tannoys (which were nearfield on the desk) and the 'tubbiness' I'd noted in the Tannoys around 160Hz disappears but now I hear it with the S5s - of course, this is going to be the major room resonant mode front to back, and with the Tannoys relocated to the back wall I'm pretty much doubling the distance between speaker and rear wall. And an 80Hz resonance is much less objectionable.

I found that raising the speakers quite high above the desk helps - 40cm works in my case.

[Arpangel]

However it being lunchtime I took a break from work and swapped the Tapco S5s (which are on shelves on the back wall) with the Tannoys (which were nearfield on the desk) and the 'tubbiness' I'd noted in the Tannoys around 160Hz disappears but now I hear it with the S5s - of course, this is going to be the major room resonant mode front to back, and with the Tannoys relocated to the back wall I'm pretty much doubling the distance between speaker and rear wall. And an 80Hz resonance is much less objectionable.

I found that raising the speakers quite high above the desk helps - 40cm works in my case.

Absolutely, the worst thing you can do is put them directly on the desk, I’ve got a pair of metal stands about 10 inches high for this purpose.

[ajay_m]

Yeah, they are now definitely somewhat above my seating position and without a large flat desk underneath them, which undoubtedly wasn't helping. Just listening to 'Aja' for the umpteenth time (it's kind of my standard reference album) and even at the very modest listening levels I'm constrained to currently, the sound is much better, I should have done this before.

I really do wish SOS would review these (I know, Behringer....), but they seem to have quite a lot of very good reviews these days and I certainly concur that they are impressively neutral (caveat: ageing ears, definitely not 'golden ears' these days). I'd love to put them in a decent room against a pair of KH120s and see how they compared, because at £400 a pair they're certainly cost-effective. Can't find any decent off-axis response curves, though, only Behringer's published curve which has to undoubtedly be taken with a grain of salt. I'd expect the waveguides to be somewhat more directional than a conventional dome tweeter.

[Arpangel]

Yeah, they are now definitely somewhat above my seating position and without a large flat desk underneath them, which undoubtedly wasn't helping. Just listening to 'Aja' for the umpteenth time (it's kind of my standard reference album) and even at the very modest listening levels I'm constrained to currently, the sound is much better, I should have done this before.

I really do wish SOS would review these (I know, Behringer....), but they seem to have quite a lot of very good reviews these days and I certainly concur that they are impressively neutral (caveat: ageing ears, definitely not 'golden ears' these days). I'd love to put them in a decent room against a pair of KH120s and see how they compared, because at £400 a pair they're certainly cost-effective. Can't find any decent off-axis response curves, though, only Behringer's published curve which has to undoubtedly be taken with a grain of salt. I'd expect the waveguides to be somewhat more directional than a conventional dome tweeter.

Listening to Aja? that would sound good on anything!