Subwoofer With My 8020a Pair

[Jathon Delsy]

My pair of Genelec 8020a monitors sound great. The bass notes sound nice and tight, but of course there's no super low sound.
So is a subwoofer worth it? Genelec recommend their 7040a, which costs a bit. Of course I need to get my room acoustics sorted, but this being so will this, or maybe another, subwoofer enable me to get the deep low end correct?

[Drew Stephenson]

I've not used the Genelec stuff but I have recently added a sub to my small Neumann speakers so here's a few general things from that experience.

Firstly you're absolutely right to get your room treatment done first.
I've got corner bass traps and fairly extensive broadband trapping around and over the mix position, this meant my room was pretty flat down to about 200Hz, with a big modal dip at 160 and a bit of a bump around 60-75.
Without that treatment it would have been very messy and I wouldn't even have considered a sub, it would definitely have made things worse.

But after playing around with the sub positioning for an afternoon I did get it into a position where the sub-200Hz area was significantly improved.
I then used the Neumann DSP software and that flattened everything out so that I'm within +/- 3dB of the target curve from 23Hz to 18kHz.

The combination of sub and DSP correction has significantly improved the monitoring here, not just in the bass but into the mid-range as well as the sub takes on the heavy lifting and the monitors get a bit more sprightly.

I think your monitors are from before Genelec started adding their SAM / GLM software in but I'd still suggest staying with the same brand for sub and satellites and there's a useful tutorial on the Genelec sub page for how to use REW software to optimise for your room.

BUT...
(and it's a big but, hence the capital letters)
For the same cost as a sub you could get a very nice set of headphones that will give you all the low end accuracy you ever need and still leave you change for a nice night out.
Do you need the sub?

[Jathon Delsy]

Thanks Drew Stephenson for that comprehensive reply.
Are there any particular headphones you'd recommend. I've got Beyerdynamic DT 700 Pro X, but I'm not sure I'd trust these for deep bottom end, and also some older DT 770 Pro, which I believe give an uneven bloom to some of the bottom end, again not trustworthy.
Are their headphones that will give me the low-end accuracy to create mixes that will rock the clubs? I always believed that mixing on headphones was not the thing to do, because they tend to submerge the ear in sound and finer discrimination is more difficult.

[Drew Stephenson]

I think headphones are a very personal thing, partly because fit is so important.
A lot of folks round here rate the AKG 702 / 712s very highly but they don't work for me. I've got some Audeze MM100 that I do like but I find wearing any kind of headphone for an extended period plays havoc with my tinnitus - hence my buying the sub.
Sennheiser HD600s tend to get good comments about the flat response and their 'honesty' but I've never had an extended listen on a pair.

As to whether you can mix on headphones, there are plenty of folks who do that exclusively these days and produce mixes as good as anyone's. You have to learn what your headphones are telling you by studying your references and working out how things translate, but that applies to any monitoring system really.
But you can still do a lot of the mixing on your 8020s, that you know well, and just use the cans to check the bottom end.

[ConcertinaChap]

The AKG702 is not only good, it's also amazingly cheap for what it is from Amazon. They were my main headphones for quite a while until I upgraded to a pair of Avantone Planar headphones which are lovely, IMHO. Being isodynamic headphones they are very good on bass.

CC

[Drew Stephenson]

Whereas I find the bass on 702s to be really lacking in really low frequency so I really can't use them as a low-end check.
Horses for courses and all that.

[Dan LB]

The Neumann NDH30s have a great bottom end. My mixes on them so far translate very well. I mainly mix on KH310s at work and KH120s at home so I opted for the Neumann open backs to supplement the 120s. No regrets whatsoever.

Subs are hard to get right even in reasonably well-treated rooms IME.

[Zukan]

First, sort the room out. Then, run REW tests. Then, come back with the results, and we can better advise you.

Headphones are a viable alternative but we have to respect the fact that many prefer to use monitors when mixing. I have headphones, which I use for various reasons, but I am old school in that I prefer to use monitors when mixing.

[tea for two]

I've got Beyerdynamic DT 700 Pro X, but I'm not sure I'd trust these for deep bottom end, and also some older DT 770 Pro, which I believe give an uneven bloom to some of the bottom end, again not trustworthy.
Are their headphones that will give me the low-end accuracy to create mixes that will rock the clubs?

Audeze LCDX mk1 approx £1K are for me the best cans I've auditioned for handling bottom : shaping tuning, also for getting heavy bottom to sit comfortably in a mix.

AKG K712pro I had was excellent for shaping tuning bottom butt I just couldn't get the bottom to sit comfortably which meant my mixes with heavy bottom just didn't translate. This could be my funny head dodgy ears.

AKG K245 semi open released 2017 I got May this year.
https://www.soundonsound.com/news/akg-l ... headphones
Outside of Audeze LCDX mk1, AKG K245 I've found for me (from those I've auditioned or purchased) best for handing bottom : shaping tuning. Also for sitting heavy bottom comfortably in a mix so my mix translates better.
I've revisited my bottom heavy pieces to remix them with K245. I picked mine up £20 used, new £60 Andertons.

::

The Neumann NDH30s have a great bottom end. My mixes on them so far translate very well.

I want to audition NDH30.

[Zukan]

I have the LCD-X and they are excellent. I have used AKG K702/712s and have blagged them in my books. Very good for low end duties but not so much for mids and highs. Senny HD650s are also good and do the whole low end thing nicely. I also have Stax and they are excellent for the mids and highs but light on the lows. Beyers also rates highly. I, like you, also want to audition the Neumanns.

[ManFromGlass]

My room is good but not great treatment-wise. Between the Shure headphones and the Genelec sub I can get a good mix. My Genelecs are ancient small ones and the sub helps for sure. Although part of me liking it could be partially the result of the placebo effect!
The Genelec people were very helpful in guiding me to the best placement of the sub.

[adrian_k]

Sounds like we have similar setups, except I have Rode NTH100 and Sennheiser HD250 headphones. I can usually get a translatable low end with this and my grot box speakers.

[tea for two]

I, like you, also want to audition the Neumanns.

Zuke reckon you might dig Shure Srh1540 closed backs their top line for closed. From trying to recall extra headroom Audeze LCD-X mk1 has when compared to my K712, my Srh1540 also has extra headroom as LCD-X mk1.
I have some problems with my ears, various headphones hurt or make my ears uncomfortable.
Srh1540 is a smooth listen for me even on distorted Metal Guitars, it's going to help my ears a tonne.
Bass on Srh1540 is detailed deep clear for Beats for Jazz Orchestral Rock, same for mids highs : to my gammy ears lol. Sonarworks fwiw say it's the most neutral closed they've tested.
I got mine last week under a ton from auction site. There's a couple listed at a ton. New 400-500squid.
Fairly light 286g without cables, comfortable ear pads, although headband isn't as comfortable it's just aboot alright.

[ManFromGlass]

Yes the headband was their weakest part. Mine wore out and I didn’t want to spend $80Cdn for a replacement so I now have a home made comfy flannel version. Took me awhile to figure out why I had little black bits of fake leather in my hair after mixing! This was after many years of use.

[tea for two]

I now have a home made comfy flannel version.
Took me awhile to figure out why I had little black bits of fake leather in my hair after mixing! This was after many years of use.

I'm not a fan of Shure's headband for Srh1840 or my Srh1540. I also shall have to do a home made jobby on my Srh1540 headband which I purrchased used 2nd hand.
My Shr1440 headband is fine. I don't get why Shure or others just look at their own previous decent durable headbands others decent durable headband then copy paste a variation.

[Drew Stephenson]

I don't get why Shure or others just look at their own previous decent durable headbands others decent durable headband then copy paste a variation.

Tell me about it, AKG k72 headband fine for a couple of hours; k702 headband really painful after about 15 minutes.

[ManFromGlass]

I was really surprised at how good the sound was on the new Rode ones when I tried them in the store. But it felt like a vise was clamped onto my head. So doesn’t matter how affordable they are . . . . . .