What do we think of the Berry Fuzz Bender?

[arkieboy]

£50 at Andertons for something that apes the trade dress of the original.

All assuming it’s going to be close enough to empower all sorts of cork sniffing, it’s not as if there aren’t at least a dozen Tone Bender ‘clones’ from JHS, Boss, Warm Audio, Analog Man and some boutique manufacturers - Andertons list 10 other pedals in this style - and of course you could go to Macari’s for something with direct lineage from the original.

Should we be heading for pitchforks and torches, or is this actually a gateway drug to celebrate? It’s hardly in the same market as Macari’s which are ten times the price for a two transistor circuit and I can’t imagine anyone who is committed enough to want a Solasound unit settling for the Behringer version.

[Drew Stephenson]

I think Behringer generally tends to play in the same market as fake Rolexes. No-one thinks they're buying the real thing, but they're buying something close enough that their budget allows.
Frequently it's an aspirational sign and if the budget does ever get large enough they'll go and buy the real thing.

[arkieboy]

In guitars I tend to agree with you, but in synths there is the sense that they are harming the market with aggressively priced products that ape the originals.

As we all know, Berry do cheap pedals in plastic cases that often sound really good, but simply aren’t properly roadworthy - Josh Scott has done some favourable sound comparisons, but I wouldn’t have one on my board. This has a metal enclosure and while it’s style is a bit of an amalgam, it’s the same ball park as their Oberheim-a-like in blue pinstripes, and feature/sound wise that ‘Obie’ is as good value for money as it looks.

If Berry are gunning for the Wamplers, Keeleys and JHSs of the world, we could end up worse off …

[arkieboy]

Of course the problem here is that lots of records I love were created with a Tone Bender Mk2, and £50 could be buried from the better half a lot more easily than a JHS Bender or the Warm Audio clone …

[Drew Stephenson]

In guitars I tend to agree with you, but in synths there is the sense that they are harming the market with aggressively priced products that ape the originals.

Genuine question, is there actually any evidence of this happening? I'm not nearly close enough to synthland to understand the actual impacts.

[Sam Spoons]

I can't see how we can justify demonising Behringer for producing a clone of the Tone Bender and not criticise JHS and Warm Audio for doing the same thing?

I get the rep Berry have and, personally, have mixed feelings about Uli's business model but making replicas of old, long discontinued, synths seems fair enough and making a digital mixer which undercut the established market by a factor of 10 (and was not a copy of anything else) is hard to criticise (and I ended up buying not one but three of them). I'm less happy about them copying current products but I simply don't buy them.

Look at it like this, a mk1 MX5 is a brilliant car... Should we condemn Mazda for making a copy of the Lotus Elan or praise them for taking an extinct model for 'inspiration' and keeping all it's best characteristics (and looks) while 'adding reliability'?

[arkieboy]

I can't see how we can justify demonising Behringer for producing a clone of the Tone Bender and not criticise JHS and Warm Audio for doing the same thing?

I agree. The Warm Audio version ought to be more objectionable, but it’s more than twice the price too …

Josh Scott often brings trade dress into this conversation. A circuit is a circuit and every pedal manufacturer deconstructs the circuit and tweaks to their ear. But aping the enclosure, colours and fonts he sees as beyond the pale. So a boutique pedal maker offering a clone of (say) a Keeley Compressor in a plain enclosure is one thing, whereas DemonFX - where looks go beyond ‘inspired by’ - is another entirely.

[Dynamic Mike]

I can't see how we can justify demonising Behringer for producing a clone of the Tone Bender and not criticise JHS and Warm Audio for doing the same thing?

I suspect at this end of the market 90% of the guitars plugged into the Tone Bender clone will be Strat, Tele or Les Paul clones.

[adrian_k]

1970s Vox Tone Bender on eBay at the moment for £2,395. Whoever buys that was never in the market for the Berry version.

[tea for two]

They should named it berry fuzzy lol.
Will it shave my fuzzy stubble.
Due to Uli's fuzzy business practices JR Ewing is his guru lol I just won't get a berry even though I look for bargain bins.

[ef37a]

http://fuzzcentral.ssguitar.com/mkII.php

I was unaware of this fuzz box but found the above interesting. Everyone and his aunty have made a version so Behringer can hardly be blamed in THIS instance. My beef is when they copy complex products like mixers or guitar amplifiers right down to the cosmetic level.

Those circuit variations slaughter several sacred cows in the guitar electronics world. Input resistance is never more than 100k, not the "magic meg" and in the case of the Marshall version, just TEN K! And don't worry about 'tone suck' with long leads? Input capacitance is 10,000 pf or 15,000pf. That's a bloody long guitar cable!

If I can find a cheap source for 3 Germaniums I might have a bash at one of those designs. (I use the term loosely!)

Dave.

[arkieboy]

I suspect at this end of the market 90% of the guitars plugged into the Tone Bender clone will be Strat, Tele or Les Paul clones.

I’m not so sure - I have a couple of really cheap FX on my board at Wonks’ recommendation: the Caline Pure Sky is a fab take on the Timmy, and is a permanent fixture, do itch to replace the trelicopter and a compressor for more boutique/characterful versions.

[Dynamic Mike]

I suspect at this end of the market 90% of the guitars plugged into the Tone Bender clone will be Strat, Tele or Les Paul clones.

I’m not so sure - I have a couple of really cheap FX on my board at Wonks’ recommendation: the Caline Pure Sky is a fab take on the Timmy, and is a permanent fixture, do itch to replace the trelicopter and a compressor for more boutique/characterful versions.

I wouldn't argue with that. Everyone loves a bargain. But what I was alluding to was we question the ethics of copying a classic pedal, but have come to accept copies of a classic guitar. Nobody slates PRS etc. for what are essentially quality copies of classic Fenders or Gibsons. Double standards?

[Sam Spoons]

I think the 'standard' PRS takes design cues from both Gibson and Fender, though it's mostly Les Paul (but with a Strat like outline). Over the years Gibson and Fender have both tried building near copies of each others instruments with little commercial success.

[The Elf]

1970s Vox Tone Bender on eBay at the moment for £2,395.

I did alright when I sold my old Tonebender, but I didn't do that well!

[Hugh Robjohns]

Those circuit variations slaughter several sacred cows in the guitar electronics world. Input resistance is never more than 100k, not the "magic meg" and in the case of the Marshall version, just TEN K! And don't worry about 'tone suck' with long leads? Input capacitance is 10,000 pf or 15,000pf. That's a bloody long guitar cable!

I think Fuzz pedals are a special case, where a medium input impedance (10-100k) actually helps in stripping out real HF from the guitar to leave spectrum space for all the fuzz harmonics.

[ef37a]

Those circuit variations slaughter several sacred cows in the guitar electronics world. Input resistance is never more than 100k, not the "magic meg" and in the case of the Marshall version, just TEN K! And don't worry about 'tone suck' with long leads? Input capacitance is 10,000 pf or 15,000pf. That's a bloody long guitar cable!

I think Fuzz pedals are a special case, where a medium input impedance (10-100k) actually helps in stripping out real HF from the guitar to leave spectrum space for all the fuzz harmonics.

Oh I agree Hugh but more by accident than design! It is practically impossible to get a much higher input impedance with low hfe Germaniums, can get 1meg or so with a BC109C, just.

I did look up some Germanium transistor sources, they are asking around 70 quid for three. When I recall all the transistors we binned when we moved our TV service dept I could bloody weep!

Dave.

[arkieboy]

Those circuit variations slaughter several sacred cows in the guitar electronics world. Input resistance is never more than 100k, not the "magic meg" and in the case of the Marshall version, just TEN K! And don't worry about 'tone suck' with long leads? Input capacitance is 10,000 pf or 15,000pf. That's a bloody long guitar cable!

I think Fuzz pedals are a special case, where a medium input impedance (10-100k) actually helps in stripping out real HF from the guitar to leave spectrum space for all the fuzz harmonics.

Oh I agree Hugh but more by accident than design! It is practically impossible to get a much higher input impedance with low hfe Germaniums, can get 1meg or so with a BC109C, just.

I did look up some Germanium transistor sources, they are asking around 70 quid for three. When I recall all the transistors we binned when we moved our TV service dept I could bloody weep!

Dave.

The flip side of this of course is a good fuzz circuit placed first in the chain integrates into the guitar electronics. The way a good fuzz-face (tone bender 1.5), or Rangemaster treble boost cleans with a single coil guitar when you reduce the guitar volume is really special.

For those bystanders who need an introduction I’d recommend ‘It’s Late’ from ‘News of the World’ by Queen. No channel switching, all done with (guitar) volume (control) and pickup selection - Brian’s clean sound on the intro is to die for.

*added words in brackets for clarity

[ef37a]

"The flip side of this of course is a good fuzz circuit placed first in the chain integrates into the guitar electronics."

Quite so Arkieboy but that then means that the results from such circuits are very dependant on the guitar electronics, the pickups used and even the settings of volume and tone pots.

Then unfortunately the "pedal industry" have used this inter-dependancy to promote the almost universally useless "True Bypass" concept.
Yes, 'vintage', simple, rough arse designs like that fuzz need to connect directly with the passive guitar but almost everything else does not! A decent buffer at the front and back end of a pedal ensures that the user gets consistent results virtually regardless of the guitar type. The low output resistance of buffered pedals also prevents "tone suck" i.e. HF loss over long cables. This is "Audio Interfacing 101."

Do not be fooled people. "True Bypass" is just a way to make things a little cheaper and charge you more for the privilege!

If any other device were to be reviewed in SoS pages that had an input resistance 10, even 100 times below standard and an output resistance of 50k+ it would be dismissed in short order!

Dave.

[Arpangel]

I think Behringer generally tends to play in the same market as fake Rolexes. No-one thinks they're buying the real thing, but they're buying something close enough that their budget allows.
Frequently it's an aspirational sign and if the budget does ever get large enough they'll go and buy the real thing.

One big difference in that Behringer/Rolex analogy, you only wear a fake Rolex because you can't afford an original, the total lack of cool from actually owning a fake makes it a definite NO.
Not so with Behringer stuff, their 2600 allows someone with little money to have that sound, and it does the job, and no one would know, no one looks down their noses at you for using a B&Q screwdriver instead of a Bahco on a job, it's the quality of the work that matters.
Buying a genuine Rolex is all about style, and status, not function, any watch will tell you the time, but what do I care, I've never worn a watch in my life.

[ef37a]

I think Behringer generally tends to play in the same market as fake Rolexes. No-one thinks they're buying the real thing, but they're buying something close enough that their budget allows.
Frequently it's an aspirational sign and if the budget does ever get large enough they'll go and buy the real thing.

One big difference in that Behringer/Rolex analogy, you only wear a fake Rolex because you can't afford an original, the total lack of cool from actually owning a fake makes it a definite NO.
Not so with Behringer stuff, their 2600 allows someone with little money to have that sound, and it does the job, and no one would know, no one looks down their noses at you for using a B&Q screwdriver instead of a Bahco on a job, it's the quality of the work that matters.
Buying a genuine Rolex is all about style, and status, not function, any watch will tell you the time, but what do I care, I've never worn a watch in my life.

Very true but ref your last sentence Tony? I bet you are one of those people who are always late for ***t!

Dave.

[Arpangel]

Very true but ref your last sentence Tony? I bet you are one of those people who are always late for ***t!

Dave.

Before I met my partner I was never late for anything, now I'm late for everything.

[ef37a]

Very true but ref your last sentence Tony? I bet you are one of those people who are always late for ***t!

Dave.

Before I met my partner I was never late for anything, now I'm late for everything.

Does your partner drive? My wife never learned and seemed to think cars were some sort of teleportation device!

Dave.

[Arpangel]

Very true but ref your last sentence Tony? I bet you are one of those people who are always late for ***t!

Dave.

Before I met my partner I was never late for anything, now I'm late for everything.

Does your partner drive? My wife never learned and seemed to think cars were some sort of teleportation device!

Dave.

She can drive, but I tend to do most of the driving, she learnt to drive in the USA, and finds roundabouts a bit of a challenge here.

Hang on, isn’t this thread supposed to be about guitar pedals? how on earth did we get onto roundabouts?

[ef37a]

Very true but ref your last sentence Tony? I bet you are one of those people who are always late for ***t!

Dave.

Before I met my partner I was never late for anything, now I'm late for everything.

Does your partner drive? My wife never learned and seemed to think cars were some sort of teleportation device!

Dave.

She can drive, but I tend to do most of the driving, she learnt to drive in the USA, and finds roundabouts a bit of a challenge here.

Hang on, isn’t this thread supposed to be about guitar pedals? how on earth did we get onto roundabouts?

In our usual, ROUNDABOUT rambling fashion Arp!

Dave.