Questions about quadraphonic sound

[Ben Asaro]

I am wondering if anyone here has any experience working with quadraphonic sound.

Once my current project is in the can, my plan for the next one will be something that utilizes spacial positioning. (The long-range plan is to have a few options on the final mix so that someone can listen to it in straight stereo, surround sound, or by using multiple devices placed around them with spoken word sync)

My questions pertain to specific use of quadraphonic and spacial processing modules in eurorack.

Thanks in advance!

[Hugh Robjohns]

One of the reasons quadraphonics failed is because image positions are not stable — the speakers are too far apart and at too great an angle to each other.

So if you're after creating a non-critical spread of sound that fills the room and creates a sense of envelopment, quad can just about do that.

But if you want to be able to position individual sounds accurately and stably, or move them in smooth, continuous paths, it's a rather disappointing solution.

[Ben Asaro]

Thanks, Hugh!
This is definitely not about precise positioning and like my other compositions is 50% science experiment, 50% music, and 50% performance art.

Since one of the playback options will be "four devices", that will be my target baseline and subsequent mixes will yield higher fidelity.

One of the modules I am considering has a center channel output and can accommodate 5.1 mixes. But as I am just dipping my toes into these waters for the first time I want to measure thrice, cut once.

My immediate goal is to take advantage of Black Friday as I am expecting anything imported to increase in price dramatically over the coming months.

Once I have the hardware sorted, the long process of design, composition, performance, and capturing will begin...

[PedroTheThird]

I tried several surround configurations, including quadrophonic ones. The main problem with it is that the listener needs a very well treated (square or circle-shaped) room to get stable phantom sources which means you can pretty much rule out proper replay in any other location (including most studios). Encoding and decoding can also be a huge problem. I would suggest to rather use 5.1 (or up) instead if it needs to be surround sound to keep backward compatibility.

[Ben Asaro]

Thanks, Pedro!

It will be mixed in Logic to Atmos most likely. But the hardware modules for processing are quadraphonic.

I think there's a misconception here that I'm trying to create something that is able to be reliably replicated, but that's actually the opposite of what I am doing!

The piece is being designed for the listener(s) to be sat wherever, or even sitting in a circle, with four devices playing the piece with a sync cue. Once playing, the devices can be moved, or the listener can move in relationship to the devices, and change the listening experience.

For those who prefer to use their surround system, or Atmos headphone system, there will also be a mix of the composition in that format, and finally a straight stereo mixdown as well.

[PedroTheThird]

That's something different indeed. So it's similar to an interactive art installation? With the individual speakers maybe producing a different sound depending on their position or is the sound fixed?

[Ben Asaro]

That's something different indeed. So it's similar to an interactive art installation? With the individual speakers maybe producing a different sound depending on their position or is the sound fixed?

Yes, something like that! But using whatever devices the listener(s) has to hand; phone, iPad, etc. As long as you have 4 of them, you're good to go.

[Ben Asaro]

I should clarify that this is not going to be a 'sound bath', which are designed as immersive soundscapes that you walk through and change depending upon your position.

[PedroTheThird]

Yes, something like that! But using whatever devices the listener(s) has to hand; phone, iPad, etc. As long as you have 4 of them, you're good to go.

Sounds like you would need a special app then to play all the channels on different devices in sync. Are you sure it's worth the effort to take that route? It would be much easier to just provide your quadrophonic sound via 5.1 FLAC for compatibility reasons (with C and LFE channels being silent) and let the listener handle the rest (including downmixing to stereo or mono)...

[Ben Asaro]

Yes, something like that! But using whatever devices the listener(s) has to hand; phone, iPad, etc. As long as you have 4 of them, you're good to go.

Sounds like you would need a special app then to play all the channels on different devices in sync. Are you sure it's worth the effort to take that route? It would be much easier to just provide your quadrophonic sound via 5.1 FLAC for compatibility reasons (with C and LFE channels being silent) and let the listener handle the rest (including downmixing to stereo or mono)...

Oh my solution will be much more belts and suspenders than that! And it will be available in several formats, including 5.1 and stereo.

[PedroTheThird]

I don't know a technical solution that allows streaming and splitting a multi-channel track to several different devices in sync. I imagine it to be quite difficult considering the technical limitations (thanks to companies fighting each other). It's certainly not going to work with known streaming services so you need your own server and app to do that. But what did you want to know regarding Eurorack? Some recommendations for quadrophonic generators or processors? I have been out of the Eurorack loop for some time but I know there were plenty of extensions available you could use for quadrophonic sound.

[Ben Asaro]

I don't know a technical solution that allows streaming and splitting a multi-channel track to several different devices in sync. I imagine it to be quite difficult considering the technical limitations (thanks to companies fighting each other). It's certainly not going to work with known streaming services so you need your own server and app to do that. But what did you want to know regarding Eurorack? Some recommendations for quadrophonic generators or processors? I have been out of the Eurorack loop for some time but I know there were plenty of extensions available you could use for quadrophonic sound.

Thanks for circling back.

The multi-device mix will literally be four mono streams and at the top of Stream One will be a voice over that says something like, press play on device no. 1 in 3 ... 2... 1 ... NOW. Press play on device no. 3... etc etc.

My main questions are pertaining to Shakmat's Aeolus Mixer and Aeolus Seeds specifically.

[Ben Asaro]

Update: After a bunch of research and an email exchange with the very pleasant Francois over at Shakmat Modular, I just placed my Black Friday order w Perfect Circuit, including a Doepfer autopan/crossfade module, Aeolus Mixer, and Aeolus Seeds. I'm very excited to give this a whirl!

[PedroTheThird]

Nice! I'm curious about your project. Mind talking about it a little more? Not many people like to experiment with surround sound unfortunately...

[Ben Asaro]

I wish I had more to tell! I'm just dipping my toes into the whole thing now. I've been wanting to do something like this for years, but I was honest enough with myself to know I didn't understand enough about modular to even begin going down that rabbit hole.

I can tell you two things off the bat, tho. The conceptual inspiration for this, musically, is based on a rather esoteric subject: the Betz Mystery Sphere. The idea of having a piece of music that imitates the alleged movement of the the Betz Sphere is something I've wanted to do for a long time, and once I learned about quadraphonic audio, the two seemed destined to collide.

The other thing is, I have a proposed case layout. I am hoping I don't have to do much swapping, this one took a very long time to lay out in Modular Grid!



The signal flow (hopefully) should go from the top row to the bottom. I don't picture using granular synthesis, but Clouds will be available as another reverb.

I am sure I will be posting about the project itself when I start it. My first order of business will be to wrangle the SIG+. I purchased it for the Berlin School project and ended up going with performance sequencers instead of generative, so I've yet to actually use it much, and definitely haven't had the chance to dig into it in any real depth.

That adventure will also be its own thread.

[PedroTheThird]

What's the origin of the idea of using several hand-synced devices as speakers to form quadrophonic sound? Is this part of the concept itself to create a unique experience for each listener? Like the mystery ball moving in different directions based on where it is put?

[Arpangel]

I worked with a guy who was very much into Quadraphonic sound, and Ambisonic's, he made his own "random panning" units, and had a customised Quad mixer that he used for manual panning, he worked with John Cage a lot, who was very much into multi-speaker set-up's.
Ambisonics I never really understood, I did have a listen to some recordings my friend made using Ambisonics, they were very impressive, but like a lot of this stuff, I thought it was a bit cliched, with the typical circular and front to back panning, one is left asking "why?" The challenge is to try and do things that aren’t like that.

[PedroTheThird]

Ambisonics explained: https://www.waves.com/ambisonics-explai ... -engineers

I did a few experiments with ambisonics in the past to learn about the format. I like it for its compatibility, it translates well to other speaker configurations. Mixing can be a challenge though, quadrophonic or 5.1+ is easier to handle.

[Ben Asaro]

What's the origin of the idea of using several hand-synced devices as speakers to form quadrophonic sound?

The origin for that is my brain.

Is this part of the concept itself to create a unique experience for each listener? Like the mystery ball moving in different directions based on where it is put?

Yes, exactly. The idea of the listener being able to introuduce their preferences on the soundscape and create new ones without the creator's input is a big part of the philosophy here. For example, there's no reason why someone can't use 5 devices, or 6, or 16, doubling or tripling up on some of the streams, or using a mix of devices along with the stereo or surround mixdowns.

[Ben Asaro]

Ambisonics explained: https://www.waves.com/ambisonics-explai ... -engineers

I did a few experiments with ambisonics in the past to learn about the format. I like it for its compatibility, it translates well to other speaker configurations. Mixing can be a challenge though, quadrophonic or 5.1+ is easier to handle.

I am familiar with abmisonics, I actually have a book on it! I agree, it's cool but, imo and experience, impractical. I do have an ambisonic decoder in my Meridian surround processor, tho.

[Ben Asaro]

I worked with a guy who was very much into Quadraphonic sound, and Ambisonic's, he made his own "random panning" units, and had a customised Quad mixer that he used for manual panning, he worked with John Cage a lot, who was very much into multi-speaker set-up's.
Ambisonics I never really understood, I did have a listen to some recordings my friend made using Ambisonics, they were very impressive, but like a lot of this stuff, I thought it was a bit cliched, with the typical circular and front to back panning, one is left asking "why?" The challenge is to try and do things that aren’t like that.

Mostly agree. The panning should have a purpose and internal logic behind it, even if it cannot be interpreted by the listener. Perhaps that's part of what was at play here? I mean, that question could be asked about ANYTHING that is not monophonic -- "why is this panned in this way?" is one of those questions we may never find answers for, and I am okay with that.

And I'm also okay with the answer being, "because I can."

[MOF]

I read that all the Premier League grounds have an Ambisonic microphone permanently rigged and this is used for crowd sound in surround mixes and could be used for atmos mixes depending on how the four channels are decoded.
I benefitted from the failed Quadrophonic market in that my four track Teac A3440 was originally meant for the hi-fi sector but then was repurposed for the growing home studio market.
I would think that straightforward quad delivery could be achieved by just using 5.1 and not sending anything to the centre and 0.1 channels.

[Ben Asaro]

I would think that straightforward quad delivery could be achieved by just using 5.1 and not sending anything to the centre and 0.1 channels.

Yup, and if I wanted straightforward quadraphonic-only, this is exactly what I would do. My quad processor is capable of 5.1, and I will probably record 6 channels just to cover my bases and then decide on what I want to do once I have a few test recordings under my belt.

[Arpangel]

I used to love mucking about with my "pseudo quadraphonic" set-up's as a kid, putting speakers as far apart as I could in the corners of the room, or splitting a stereo signal between two speakers in different rooms!
And of course, the classic trick of connecting one speaker to the positive outputs of both channels and putting that at the back.
I loved it, it made the bass seem beyond on my cheap speakers.

[Ben Asaro]

My Black Friday/Tariffacalypse purchase has been made! Shipped yesterday from Perfect Circuit.

I'll be eating Cup Noodle for a few months but I think it'll be worth it in the long run. No ordering anything outside the US for a while, I think. Bracing for impact!