Piano's and microphones

[Arpangel]

I agree, it’s very rare that it becomes unusable, but it can become an issue. Recording vocals with my AEA84 at a couple of feet/a meter can introduce hiss, even with my Cranborne Camden preamps, as they usually need to be maxed out. Same with my Line Audio OM1 on quiet sources at a distance (small diaphragm condensers inherently have a higher noise floor)

I’ve been meaning to experiment with the converters’ sensitivity to see if that can mitigate it somewhat and allow me run the preamps at less gain, but it may well be that the noise added there would bring the same results.

Aled, I'm using one of Mike Skeet's dual channel preamp's which I've had for years, I've got used to it's performance which is very good.
I don’t think I’ve ever had gain problems, the amount of gain available is about 70dB maybe more, and I’ve never noticed any noise and there's more than enough headroom, the input gain knobs very rarely go above 12 o clock with any mic. If these break down, I’m really going to miss them.
I have two of his surround mixers that his son gave me, they have preamps in, but I cant figure out how to use them as nothing is labelled!
I brought these to a SOS Meet one day but no one could figure them out.

[ef37a]

At the risk of treading on Hon'Doc's toes!

Only the DC resistive part of a mic's circuit will generate hiss, "Johnson" or thermal noise. The resistance of a mic is indeterminate but is generally taken as 150 or 200 Ohms although for something like an SM58 it will be the coil resistance and the winding resistances of the transformer.

Some very cheap mics don't use a transformer but wind more coils of thinner wire to get a decent sensitivity. I have here a plastic Philips mic that measures 753 Ohms so that will have a noise output of about -124dBu.
Once I have modded it to XLR it is going in the garden.

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

As Dave says, all mics generate some noise.

In capacitor mics it is mainly from the electronics of the impedance converter. In passive mics it's due to the Johnson noise generated by the resistance of the output transformer (or moving coil itself).

And as Aled says, most of the perceived noise from passive mics is down to needing higher gain from the mic preamp to compensate for the typically lower mic sensitivity.

[The Red Bladder]

I'm wondering how noisy that T Bone ribbon is?

About as noisy as the desk's mic pre designed by R.Neve. I suppose it would be unbelievably noisy and hum a good deal if I plugged it into a Behringer Eurodesk. I used one of Uli's desks for foldback for an hour once, but had to switch it off when smoke and flames rose from it.

A 2" ribbon is something I use in combination with a couple of condenser mics to give the bass a focus on a concert grand or a bass fiddle or even a cello - well anything really that needs that profound bottom end.

[James Perrett]

I am very interested in that ribbon for my son Red.

I don't have access to a T Bone ribbon (as far as I know - there could be one lurking somewhere in Simon's collection...) but here's my lad playing classical guitar through an MXL R144 which is a similar cheap ribbon mic.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GTjnuz ... sp=sharing

compared with an SE Mini condenser mic

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GU5SLp ... sp=sharing

I wouldn't say that we had the gain or mic position totally optimised as we were really just doing a go/no-go test on a bunch of mics but it gives you some idea of what to expect. We were using an SSL2+ interface for the test.

[Arpangel]

Getting the bass right on our piano is a nightmare, everything else is just "OK"
Problems are, vague stereo if any, muddy congested bass, a "closed in" dead sound.
I'm just accepting this, it's the best I've been able to do, it's not a grand in a concert hall.
This sound is OK but a compromise, I may as well go back to my starting point with the mic's above the hammers, the sound we have now with the wide cardioids at the foot is an attempt to get a more distant classical type sound, and it’s just not working in this room, so I may as well give up on that and ad EQ and reverb later.
I'm OK with rough studio mic placement, but I’m useless when it comes to realism, I don’t have an instinct about where to put a mic, like some people do.

[The Red Bladder]

I'm OK with rough studio mic placement, but I’m useless when it comes to realism, I don’t have an instinct about where to put a mic, like some people do.

Nobody knows instinctively where to put a microphone - unless they mean that they put it where the monkey puts the nuts. And anyone claiming to possess such an instinct is lying through their teeth!

We are all working on a suck-it-and-see basis. We try the accepted 'wisdom' of guru-X when we start out and find that it does not work. Then we try Gurus Y and Z - and they don't work either! They don't work in that room, on that instrument and for that type of music!

All this talk of you MUST use a U87 or an SM58 or whatever mic is the standard is pure hogwash. There is no law that says that a small omni is the only thing to use on a piano and I prefer a couple of LDCs with a bright top end combined with that ribbon - though I did build my own ribbon mic and got slightly better results than using a T-Bone thing - though the T-Bone was pretty decent and they are cheap enough!

But that configuration is just for classical piano on a full concert grand. A sweaty singer-songwriter giving it large on the same instrument might require a different setup - or the same, who knows! A honky-tonk upright detuned for phase effect? Suck it and see!

My fav mics at the moment are the Neumann M149 for most things, Neumann TLM 103 for vocals and piano, AKG C414 BTLII for drum OH, Audix D6 for kick, Sennheiser MKH416 for film location work, and the DPA 4061 or 6061 when used as a PZM for a thin, airy sound.

That's at the moment and today - tomorrow might be different!

The Neumann TLM103 is often poo-pooed as being a poor man's U87, but it is a good all-rounder, useful on almost anything and a studio workhorse of a mic. 23 years ago it cost £800, today it's £1,200 - so in real terms it is about £300 cheaper!

Those mini DPAs are great for experimental work because they are so small and can be put anywhere, as well as just being the standard lapel jobs.

"Good mics are the sound engineer's secret weapon!" - Bruce Swedien.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Nobody knows instinctively where to put a microphone...

Instinct is mostly based on experience. So the more you do, the more experienced is gained, and the more 'instinctive' it appears to be able to place microphones and get a reasonably good sound at the first attempt.

We are all working on a suck-it-and-see basis.

Absolutely, because every situation is different, exactly as you say. You can use 'accepted wisdom' and guru recommendations as helpful starting points, but that's all they can ever be. It's only by listening and experimenting that the optimum placement can be found.

"Good mics are the sound engineer's secret weapon!" - Bruce Swedien.

On that we can agree!

[Arpangel]

Mr Bladder, that recording we did at your place, piano, perfect, no issues.
I think it was two Neumann 47’s, on your Bosendorfer Imperial, in your very large live room, completely different scenario, again, that piano appears on the first track of my album One For The Road.

[The Red Bladder]

Mr Bladder, that recording we did at your place, piano, perfect, no issues.
I think it was two Neumann 47’s, on your Bosendorfer Imperial, in your very large live room, completely different scenario, again, that piano appears on the first track of my album One For The Road.

Then get your tail back up here! Call for terms!

[Arpangel]

Call for terms!

How about a bottle of Scotch and and talking utter b******s until three in the morning?

[ef37a]

Call for terms!

How about a bottle of Scotch and and talking utter b******s until three in the morning?

Hey! Aren't you on a s***load of meds?

Dave.

[Arpangel]

Call for terms!

How about a bottle of Scotch and and talking utter b******s until three in the morning?

Hey! Aren't you on a s***load of meds?

Dave.

This "is" rock n roll, statistically I shouldn’t even be alive at my age.
I think I’m over-reacting about our piano sound, my partner thinks it's fine, and I'm sure many wouldn’t complain, but I know in my head what I want and I’m just not getting it, and going to the wilds of Scotland every time I need a bit of piano just isn’t practical.

[tea for two]

In peoples rooms just all over the place acoustically, were I recording their instrument I'd rock up with boundary mics, contact mics, electrets, handheld recorder that did ms, hyper cardioids, usual ldc sdc ribbon. As I'd never know which is going to give the desired recording. Different from a studio where variables are more aware of, easier to narrow down what might give desired recording in a studio, at least a studio familiar with.

[Arpangel]

In peoples rooms just all over the place acoustically, were I recording their instrument I'd rock up with boundary mics, contact mics, electrets, handheld recorder that did ms, hyper cardioids, usual ldc sdc ribbon. As I'd never know which is going to give the desired recording. Different from a studio where variables are more aware of, easier to narrow down what might give desired recording in a studio, at least a studio familiar with.

Time, it takes time, I've got lots of time, but my patience bucket has a huge hole in it.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I know in my head what I want and I’m just not getting it....

There are several excellent sounding virtual pianos, recorded using superb instruments in excellent acoustics.... most with good facilities for tweaking to suit specific requirements.

[Arpangel]

I know in my head what I want and I’m just not getting it....

There are several excellent sounding virtual pianos, recorded using superb instruments in excellent acoustics.... most with good facilities for tweaking to suit specific requirements.

Ha! I was thinking that too, the piano I use on most of the music I make is one by Reason, it's "my piano" and it sounds wonderful, not a straight ahead piano, a bit nostalgic, but beautiful, and very convincing if I didn’t tell you it was electronic.
But, I feel I have to use our "real" piano, for some reason.

[Arpangel]

Im sure you’ll all be glad to know, I’m happy now
Yes, after a back breaking manoeuvre and the help of neighbours to move the piano, and now using different mic's, the difference is chalk and cheese.
Moved the piano out of its corner, and now using two omni's with excellent results, no issues, good clear bass, and open top end, very clear sound overall, with surprisingly little room sound.

Happy Christmas all,

[Hugh Robjohns]

Isn't physics predictably wonderful?

[tea for two]

Moved the piano out of its corner, and now using two omni's with excellent results, no issues, good clear bass, and open top end, very clear sound overall, with surprisingly little room sound.

Happy Christmas all,

Gosh I don't know why it didn't occur to me to suggest this. It's been mentioned advised on ere foruume several thymes : standing with an instrument in different parts of a room, moving the instrument around in a room to figure out where its sound is improved.

[Hugh Robjohns]

It is surely obvious that placing a grand piano in a corner is going to degrade its sound ... but I assumed its location there was a deliberate choice to make the rest of the room usable. One of life's compromises...

[Arpangel]

It is surely obvious that placing a grand piano in a corner is going to degrade its sound ... but I assumed its location there was a deliberate choice to make the rest of the room usable. One of life's compromises...

Yes, it was obvious, but all we had to do in the end was reverse it, so the keyboard is up against the wall, rather than the foot of the piano, its taken up no more space than before, but the difference in sound is huge.

[wavetable]

Having a similar quest in a similar situation I was curious - is the piano out of the corner, reversed or both? If it's reversed but still in the same corner then in which orientation did you have the lid opening towards the wall rather than the room? Now or when you had problems?

Mine's tail into the corner parallel to one wall opening out towards the room. The room is L-shaped and fairly well damped by soft furnishings and wall coverings. I have what I feel is a degree of muddiness in the lower mids recording with a couple of Mojave DS1000s but have tamed it to some degree by moving the mics further out into the room at about 3 feet. That solved a lot of unevenness; it felt like the sound had space to 'open out' a bit more. If I go down to rim level it removes some of the lower end. If I go higher I get a fuller sound.

I'm going to try adding a couple of Josephson SDCs close in and combine with the LDCs to see if I can find some balance.

I can't move the piano - it is where it is by virtue of living room requirements. My wife requires a living room.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Wives are funny like that...

[wavetable]

I've had something of an epiphany about my piano recording problems. I've still not received my SDCs but I had found recently that I get a better sound in Blumlein so took a chunk out of a bit of money that is due soon and bought an R88 mk2 earlier than I had planned.

The mic sounds wonderful (I already had a couple of RPQ500s that I bought some years back with the intention of getting a ribbon at some point) but I A/B'ed the takes from the Mojaves with it and realised that the differences weren't massive - they were really what I would expect of tube LDC vs ribbon using the same technique, and that the oddities that I took to be the piano's character in the room were being faithfully captured by both.

I had been reading a forum thread elsewhere which had been talking about comb filtering and suddenly realised that this was my exact problem. It's why the LDCs were so sensitive to positioning in AB and I could hear some frequencies jumping out and others receding when I re-positioned them.

When I think about it, it's obvious - the piano sits close side-on to an untreated wall with another behind me in the 'L' and I finally understood that the direct sounds from piano to mics is so closely followed by the reflected sound that comb-filtering is the inevitable result.

I was eyeing up another pre-amp (not because I thought it would fix things, just that I worry about inflation pushing things beyond my reach) but my eyes are now fully on diffuser panels.