Small ish Digital mixer for solo artist?

[AlecSp]

To replace your Zed 10FX, you have a few form factor options. You'll see some higher prices, but remember you typically have a huge increase in functionality:

1) Replace like-for like with another Zed 10FX. Cheap, easy, but loses the potentiol for additional functionality and I/O that comes by default with pretty much any digital mixer. If you want more channels, go up the range, but you're approaching the budget where you could go digital for little premium.

2) Lunchbox mixer with no local screen/controls. You'll need an external control device - typically a tablet, but limited mixing is completely practical using a phone. Benefits of this style are that your mixer lives on the stage where you want all the I/O, you have your choice of touch-screen for control - large/small, the choice is yours. Built-in touchscreens on mixers are often mediocre, compared with tablets/phones. Examples: Behrinter X-AIR series (XR12, XR16, XR18), A&H CQ-20B, Mackie DL16S, Presonus StudioLive 16R. Be cautious of Soundcraft (UI12/16 - may problems experienced with connectivity and noisy pre-amps when phantom power is used) plus Soundcraft's future appears limited.

3) As above, but with a touch screen. Whilst initially appealing, to me option 2 is still the winner for some of the reasons mentioned above. Examples A&H CQ-12T, CQ-16T, Behringer Wing Rack. I'd avoid anything without recallable mic-gains (QSC TouchMix)

4) Proper mixer with faders. Arguably an easier transition from analog, but most of these will be larger than you're used to albeit tiny for their capability, typically rack width or larger. A&H SQ5, Yamaha DM3, Behringer Wing Compact. I'd avoid anything without LCD scribble strips (QU16)

5) There are quite a few options that don't fit the "standards" above. Behringer Flow 12/16 - very compact with some on board control, remainder is app based, unlikely to meet your channel count. Zoom LiveTrak - limted processing, no recallable gain, no motorised faders, no LCD scribble strips. Quite a few low-brand mixers which have smaller footprints, but are hard to recommend based on lack of experience or brand profile - inc Studiomaster Digilive.

Pretty much any of the digital options given above will offer cracking audio quality for your application, and an impressive improvement in signal processing. Expect a small learning curve, as much as for the increased functionality as for any expected "digital complexity".

Personally, I use and can happily recommend:
XR18 - 16 in, 8 out. Control via tablet/phone app is no barrier to productivity for me. One of the cheapest options around, and a good reliability record.
SQ7 - way bigger than you need, but SQ is a very capable and flexible platform, with very few niggles.
X32 - starting to feel old, but still highly capable - and cheap. Again, bigger than you need.

[Sam Spoons]

IIRC the Qu16 has 6 aux inputs in addition to it's 16 mic inputs, t

YRW, there are no dedicated aux returns on the QU16. 16 mic/line inputs and 3 stereo inputs.

https://www.allen-heath.com/hardware/qu/qu-16/

Not exactly what I said, accepted it has three stereo aux inputs, (I did say IIRC) not 6 mono ones but those are fine for (and provided for) getting outboard hardware fx or sound sources (back) into the desk.

[ajay_m]

If a touch screen is acceptable rather than faders, the Wing Rack really is a future-proof solution in terms of both inputs and raw power. At £1200 it is more expensive then the little A&H mixers but far,far more powerful.

[Dave Rowles]

Yeah, I popped on to suggest a wing. I've just got the full sized one, and currently learning it for my first gig with it in a couple of weeks....writing a user review at the same time hehehehe

[Bob Bickerton]

If you're mixing on the fly, with guest and therefore unpredictable singers, whilst also focussed on playing, then you 100% need something with faders, whether it be digital or analogue.

I'm perfectly comfortable with digital, but for me touchscreens are a no-no if I'm tweaking on the fly whilst performing - I have to 'feel' the fader under my finger.

Most analogue mixers have OK FX these days, but few offer FOH EQ. It's interesting you note your stage piano requires a sweepable mid, are you sure that's not a system EQ issue?

I've always thought the Dynacord CMS600-3 a mighty beast (but have not tried one myself), the Tascam Model 12 has sweepable mids as well as some FOH EQ. The Allen & Heath ZED60-14FX gives you more channels in a small format mixer.

If you go digital there have already been good suggestions but as I said before, if it was me, I;d want something with faders.

Bob

[shufflebeat]

…you 100% need something with faders, whether it be digital or analogue.

I understand this logic but here’s a slightly different take.

Any mixer compatible with the Mixing Station app can take advantage of the very flexible layout features.

I’ve created a couple of buttons which can apply +/- 3dB of channel fader level on any selected channel. A couple of taps on one of those can quickly adjust for all but the most out of the ordinary voice, precise and reliable.

[S2]

Hi

Just to add my thoughts.

You're a solo artist, presumably playing piano and singing with backing (drum) tracks. So consequently as a solo player/mixer operator combined, you don't want anything too difficult to use on the fly as you'll have limited time and there will be other considerations to worry about between songs?

So I'd say the lunchbox style mixer (box on floor with associated app) is going to be largely pointless. You want something near you can control and you don't need I/O elsewhere on the stage I imagine?

Equally I wouldn't go for the touchscreen style mixer either - again if you want to do small adjustments quickly they are just not as good.

I have two mixers (I'm a bass player in two four piece bands but operate the mixer). One is an A&H Zed 12Fx which personally I'd say was ideal for you but I get you want more IO and it's obviously not digital. But it's so easy to control (with proper faders unlike the Zed 10fx) and very quiet and robust.

The other is a Behringer X32 Producer which is a completely different kettle of fish. It's great and it offers a lot of options. It is all physical control with no touchscreen (though you can use the app) but there is some menu diving and layering, though moving faders is a great bonus. But it's a £900 or so and tbh the build quality isn't brilliant. Personally I'd steer clear and go for a better make. The QU16 for example, but it's £1500.

I think you need a budget in mind just so people can come up with suitable suggestions. The Yamaha DM3 looks good but again it's £1300.

Under £1000 and you are looking at the Studiomaster Hybrid Digilive 16 which is around £700 but I know nothing about it. The CQ12 and 18T look good and personally I'm interested in them, but are touchscreen. The Zoom Livetrak 8 and 12 are sort of Hybrid I think, but don't know much about them. Behringer XR18 is a tablet lunchbox style affair and our singer has one, it's the most unreliable piece of gear I've ever seen! Avoid!

From what you've said I'm not sure why you 'need' a digital mixer or whether it's more of a 'want'. If more channels plus more EQ options (maybe via some sort of box) would work and keep it simple then that might work better.

Whatever you buy (and I'll probably get flamed for this) I'd go for a good quality manufacturer. I've been bitten a few times by 'cheaper' gear (the X32 for example) not standing up to the rigour of gigging and I now buy the best that I can afford. I'd steer clear of Behringer and go for trusted makers like A&H and Yamaha.

[skipper01]

Thanks again for all the further info and replies - all noted.
I agree I’m not 100% sure of even transitioning to digital still but am getting clearer thanks to the help.
I primarily just need a couple of extra mono mic/line channels.
If analogue this in part should afford me a further mid band to do a bit more Eq on my stage piano that I currently can’t achieve with the limited eq on the piano itself and on the stereo line channel on the current mixer being used.
Without going into massive detail I’d just like to shape the piano eq with a bit more detail/choice if possible.
This was part of the reason for considering digital as I’d imagine the eq capabilities would/could be vast.
The recording capabilities with digital is a minor bonus/consideration (for potential promo purposes down the line maybe).
The realistic ‘hands on’ aspect is absolutely essential though as I also sometimes fiddle with singers eq as well as levels on the fly whilst multi tasking (as best I can given my position etc).
To be honest it’s sometimes a piano karaoke type scenario.
I will endeavour to try some out if I can in a shop and even short term hire if necessary.

[Murray B]

Thanks again for all the further info and replies - all noted.
I agree I’m not 100% sure of even transitioning to digital still but am getting clearer thanks to the help.
I primarily just need a couple of extra mono mic/line channels.
If analogue this in part should afford me a further mid band to do a bit more Eq on my stage piano that I currently can’t achieve with the limited eq on the piano itself and on the stereo line channel on the current mixer being used.
Without going into massive detail I’d just like to shape the piano eq with a bit more detail/choice if possible.
This was part of the reason for considering digital as I’d imagine the eq capabilities would/could be vast.
The recording capabilities with digital is a minor bonus/consideration (for potential promo purposes down the line maybe).
The realistic ‘hands on’ aspect is absolutely essential though as I also sometimes fiddle with singers eq as well as levels on the fly whilst multi tasking (as best I can given my position etc).
To be honest it’s sometimes a piano karaoke type scenario.
I will endeavour to try some out if I can in a shop and even short term hire if necessary.

A hire is a very good plan. Also for most of the 'tablet mixers' you can run the control software in demo mode - this will give you an idea of the user interfaces
and you can have a poke around to see if you'll get on with it okay.

[The Elf]

Behringer XR18 is a tablet lunchbox style affair and our singer has one, it's the most unreliable piece of gear I've ever seen! Avoid!

In what respect? Mine has been 100% reliable, and I know of one studio that runs its entire system on a pair of them!

If you're talking about wireless connection I could believe it (I never used that feature), but other than that?

[AlecSp]

In what respect? Mine has been 100% reliable, and I know of one studio that runs its entire system on a pair of them!

If you're talking about wireless connection I could believe it (I never used that feature), but other than that?

Ditto to Elf's response. While it's always poor form to base views on a single experience, I can't think of any issues I've seen reported over the last 10 years that X-Air has been around - other than self-inflicted wi-fi issues, which are common across any wi-fi mixer.

Soundcraft UI mixers have definitely had more than their fair share of issues - even the supposedly better UI24s haven't aged well.

But, as far as I can tell, X-Air has been one of the more reliable mixers around - as it should be with no moving parts. Even the PSU, which can be an issue in other products, appears to be solid.

[Wonks]

I've just ordered the Studiomaster for myself, which should arrive Thursday. I'll post how easy I find it to use.

Please do, thanks again and to all !

Andertons have messed up so it looks like tomorrow at least before it arrives.

[AlecSp]

I've just ordered the Studiomaster for myself, which should arrive Thursday. I'll post how easy I find it to use.

Do they have an easy returns process?

Just found this video review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3zHbvh1xLs

Aside from the non-recallable gains, which would kill it for me, you need a paperclip or pokey thing to toggle 48v. But it's the physical interface that bewilders - it's like it was designed to encourage all digital mixer users to use an app interface. The very prospect of trying to use this live makes using Mixing Station the height of ease of use.

And then there's the web interface. While some love these, rather than apps, personally I'm not a fan. The interface doesn't look great. And, sadly, it's unlikely that Mixing Station will come to the rescue with these, as there simply isn't likely to be the demand.

I think it's telling that this mixer appears to have been around for 4 years, yet I'd never heard of it before this thread...

[Wonks]

Well, the Studiomaster has arrived. It will go back.

Whilst it does offer a fair bit for the price, there are several things that are putting me off.

Yes, you really have to use the web interface to get anywhere with it. And that in itself is an issue if you are using a tablet browser rather than a computer browser. On my iPad Air it is a PITA to use, as every time you go to a new page (say you press the EQ button for a channel), half the page becomes filled with the keyboard which you have to shut. And as you move your finger near the bottom of the page it you get your favourite app bar pop up.

It is better on my Fire Tablet as the browser is less proactive, but in a vertical orientation you often lose the buttons to go back. And adjusting values using knobs is dire. Round knobs but you have to move your finger vertically to adjust the parameters, and as they are often at the bottom of the screen, to lower a value you only have a few mm of finger movement before you run out of screen space and you need to reapply your finger further up. It’s also very easy to move your finger sideways and mess up the whole process.

When you press a channel select button, half the time you get a pop-up to rename the channel and pick a colour for it, which is annoying.

The headphone output is to quiet. I was using 62ohm AKG712s and had to have the headphone volume right up to hear much. It’s also a post main fader headphone take-off, so if the master faders are fairly well down, then you hear almost nothing.

The per channel ‘compressor’ is a compressor/expander, with quiet sounds becoming louder and louder sounds being limited. No option for compressor only.

And I’ve only played with it for 20 minutes.

[AlecSp]

Well, the Studiomaster has arrived. It will go back.

As I thought...

Yes, you really have to use the web interface to get anywhere with it.

These web interface mixers just don't add up for me. I understand the beauty of having the interface on the mixer, rather than in a separate app. But there are too many compromises - the browser itself being one of them. My brief UI24 experience was enough to convince me it wasn't for me.

And I’ve only played with it for 20 minutes.

Did you ever try that nasty scan & select front panel interface? It looked truly horrific!

A shame, really, as no-one's yet mastered the low cost compact digital mixer with enough on-board controls. I think the Flow got closest, but still no cigar. Personally, I don't think it's possible as hardware UI is just too costly and fixed. It's just too tempting to put it into an app and the user effectively pays for their own interface.

For me, it's hard to beat Mixing Station on a reasonable sized tablet, with some subtle customisation to help focus on what I need.

[Wonks]

The panel controls aren't too bad, but the rotary encoders require far too many turns. Ideally there would be a 1:1 relationship between knob position and indicator light. Whereas it's about 3 turns of the knob for full control movement. Which is good if you want fine control, but not if you want to get a volume up of down quickly. If there was a dual fast/slow mode operation with fast being the default, then that would be workable but there isn't.

[The Elf]

You've pretty much nailed the problems I have with tablets and touch-screens in general. I must have lost countless hours trying the find that value on a rotary controller between the two other values it is intent on giving me.

[Wonks]

The basic fader control seems fine on the browser interface. If you could just touch a value box and immediately type in a value, it would be reasonable, but you’ve got to go through the process of clearing the existing value first, which IMO is bad programming and slows the whole process down.

[AlecSp]

You've pretty much nailed the problems I have with tablets and touch-screens in general. I must have lost countless hours trying the find that value on a rotary controller between the two other values it is intent on giving me.

Is that a real problem, though, or just pandering to your OCD? I'm as guilty of the next man of wanting things at specific values - particularly 0dB.

But you do realise that with a typical budget analog mixer, a fader physically at 0dB is typically not exactly at unity. Just look compare the screen and the faders. And it really makes little/no difference.

To that end, though, I do rather like Mixing Station's functionality where every tap on either end of the fader track adds or removes 0.3dB. A quick and easy way to nudge values up/down - even if they might end up either side of absolute 0dB

[The Elf]

You've pretty much nailed the problems I have with tablets and touch-screens in general. I must have lost countless hours trying the find that value on a rotary controller between the two other values it is intent on giving me.

Is that a real problem, though, or just pandering to your OCD?

How about trying to set -12 semitones while the control snaps between 11 and 13? Or a subtle detune between oscillators, where a couple of ticks are the difference between 'searing' and 'wobbling'?

No, not just my OCD, I can assure you!

Been there many times...

[shufflebeat]

Is that a real problem, though, or just pandering to your OCD? I'm as guilty of the next man of wanting things at specific values - particularly 0dB.

Hey, that’s not OCD, that’s just caring - about stuff that other people don’t get.

Anyway, another vote for Mixing Station and it’s “double tap fader resets to 0”, but use it carefully.

[Bob Bickerton]

Re reading this thread I was lamenting the paucity of analogue mixers with digital FOH control (where you need it most) and then I remembered this: https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/ko ... nk-mw-2408

Haven't tried it, but the MW-1608 channel version could be ideal and with two mids (non-sweepable) on the stereo inputs the problem on piano could be solved. All analogue input section with digital processing of Graphic EQ, Anti Feedback and dynamics on the main outputs.

To show you how Ludite-ish I really am, I recently had to run sound for a play (a rare thing for me these days) and decided to use a QSC Touchmix to access some decent FOH EQ etc. Even though I was only using one stereo input, I still popped a Yamaha MG-12 analogue mixer between the input and the QSC - Why? Because I spent most of the play looking for cues and did not want to be looking at a touch screen or winding a stepped digital control on the QSC. I spent most of the play with a finger on the fader.

Bob

[Sam Spoons]

I was an early adopter of digital with a Mackie DR1608* but if I was replacing it now for similar gigs I'd probably go for the Yamaha DM3s. I can't afford Dante peripherals so no point in going for the DM3 with Dante and as digital snakes were/are not available for the Mackie either functionality is similar (but with the benefit of physical faders and for less money in real terms).

* IIRC I bought mine in 2009 not long after they were released. I still have it and it's still a decent little mixer, I will continue to use it on the few gigs I'm likely to do into the future.

[skipper01]

Cheers again for all the replies, help and info.
I’m far better informed now taking on the pros and cons and suggestions.
Clearly lots of options with the digital route.
Hopefully got a chance to trial a Yamaha DM3 soon for starters which appears to sit as close to my needs (I think!)
Ironically managed to fix the zed10fx so bought myself some time at least but it’s on borrowed time!

[AlecSp]

How about trying to set -12 semitones while the control snaps between 11 and 13? Or a subtle detune between oscillators, where a couple of ticks are the difference between 'searing' and 'wobbling'?

Fair enough - though it sounds like these comments are more on synths or virtual instruments?

TBH, for a mixer, it's hard to see where it would be so much of an issue - but maybe that's just me. If I had effects settings that needed to be ultra-precise, I'd automate them.