Sound Devices choosing a recorder

[Arpangel]

After experimenting setting up our piano mic's, and getting some decent results, I'm thinking it may be time to get a better recorder for our piano room, so thinking about a Sound Devices, from what I can ser, the Mix Pre 3 fits the bill, two XLR mic inputs with phantom, thats all I need, but I'm confused about the battery situation, although we will be using it via the charger most of the time, is this included?
I'm currently using a Tascam DR100 MK1, but I think the preamp's on the Mix Pre will be a lot better, I don't want to use any other gear, as I'd like to keep this as minimal as possible, so others can use it without too much fuss

[Bob Bickerton]

Sound Devices MixPre have excellent clean preamps and the MKII models have 32 floating bit recording making it set and forget. It ships with the standard AA battery sled (no batteries included) but can also be powered off USB and the included power adaptor.

I've made broadcast standard recordings with the MixPre MKI

Bob

[Hugh Robjohns]

As Bob says, it comes with a AA tray, but standard alkaline will only last an hour or so. Lithium are better, naturally, but silly expensive.

If you want true portability it's well worth investing in some L-mount rechargeable batteries and a charger. Or you could use a chunky USB power-bank.

Original model review:
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/so ... s-mixpre-3

Series II review:
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/so ... ixpre-6-ii

[Dan LB]

I power my MixPre 6 (MK I) from USB C power banks (I have a couple). I’ll leave some rechargeable AA batteries in the included sled should I need to change the power bank mid recording but I never really need to.
It’s a much cheaper solution than L-mount batteries and works well for me.
A 20000mAh power bank will last you all day.

[Arpangel]

Thank’s all, looks like it’s the MixPre 3 then.
This lack of pre-record? take it it’s got nothing to do with setting pause record levels?
See prices have gone up since I last looked

[Hugh Robjohns]

This lack of pre-record? take it it’s got nothing to do with setting pause record levels?

Not sure what you're talking about. The MixPre3ii has a 10 second pre-record buffer (if you want it).

See prices have gone up since I last looked

There are quite a few original MixPre3s on the second-hand market. They don't have the 32bit float conversion option of the series ii models, and don't support some other newer options, but it's still a very fine recorder.

Alternatively, there's the Zoom F6 which does have 32bit float and six mic inputs. It really is a set and forget machine, great for capturing ad hoc performances without having to worry or faff with setting levels etc.

[ghellquist]

And if all you need are two XLR inputs, the Zoom F3 is a possible choice. Runs a decent time on Lithium AA batteries (expensive), can take power on USB-C in. I have been using one a few years with a Schoeps MSTC64 with good enough results.

[Arpangel]

And if all you need are two XLR inputs, the Zoom F3 is a possible choice. Runs a decent time on Lithium AA batteries (expensive), can take power on USB-C in. I have been using one a few years with a Schoeps MSTC64 with good enough results.

Thanks, are the results from the Zoom going to be appreciably better than my Tascam DR100 MK111? The only reason to get a new machine was to get better preamps.
I could use my external preamps which are excellent, and go into the line inputs of the Tascam, but I want to keep gear to a minimum, for operational reasons, ease of use by others.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I've not compared them directly, but I doubt there's much in it, and room noise will probably be the dominant factor anyway.

The main benefits of the Zoom F series, as I see it in your situation, are:

1. the floating point recording format which means you won't have to worry about setting levels or clipping anything. It really is just a case of hitting record and forgetting about it.

2. With the F6 you can record 6 channels at once, so you could record a jam with your friends in a very convenient and hassle-free way.

But... if you just want a stereo recording of, say, your piano, I'd save my money and continue to use the Tascam. Not point in change just for the sake of it when the Tascam is a perfectly reasonable recorder.

[Bob Bickerton]

Thanks, are the results from the Zoom going to be appreciably better than my Tascam DR100 MK111? The only reason to get a new machine was to get better preamps.
I could use my external preamps which are excellent, and go into the line inputs of the Tascam, but I want to keep gear to a minimum, for operational reasons, ease of use by others.

I haven't tried the Zoom F3, but one consideration is how easy it is to operate. The Zoom F3 has a tiny 'slide' to record button off to the side. Personally, I've come across these before and don't like them - give me a big red button every time!

So you have the Tascam DR100 MKIII - nice unit. I actually bought one of those to take hiking for recording natural soundscapes as I didn't want to take the MixPre 3 with me on long hikes. The DR100 has pretty clean preamps, and whilst I didn't AB test with the MixPre, in terms of your proposed usage I doubt if there would be any discernible difference.

Oddly enough I've been through this exact process in the past week for a friend who records classical guitar, but occasionally a guitar/violin/viola trio. Having reviewed all options he opted for the Zoom F6, which I think would serve you well.

If I was buying a stereo only recorder now I would most certainly opt for the new Tascam FR-AV2 as it has great specifications and a good user interface.

When you say you might use your external preamps - what are they? If they're coloured, then you're barking up the wrong tree here as these quality portable recorders aim to provide 'clean' preamps.

Bob

[Hugh Robjohns]

I think Tony's referring to the Mike Skeet-designed preamps in his custom mixer. They are very clean and neutral.

[Bob Bickerton]

Fair enough, I'm unfamiliar with them.

Bob

[Arpangel]

Thanks Bob, also, I was really surprised at how good the built-in mic's are on the DR100, thats the reason I bought it, they seemed better than the competition, I'll see what happens, I'm not unhappy with the preamps, but I don’t really know, they seem clean enough, I find the gain a bit sensitive, and I find I have to use the Pad all the time.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I find the gain a bit sensitive, and I find I have to use the Pad all the time.

Your Sennheiser MKH mics are high output mics, pushing out 25mV/Pa. That's about 5dB hotter than a typical Schoeps mic (which delivers around 15mV/Pa), and that's still pretty high compared to many other common mics.

So if close miking I'm not surprised you need the pad (in mic or recorder).

[Arpangel]

I find the gain a bit sensitive, and I find I have to use the Pad all the time.

Your Sennheiser MKH mics are high output mics, pushing out 25mV/Pa. That's about 5dB hotter than a typical Schoeps mic (which delivers around 15mV/Pa), and that's still pretty high compared to many other common mics.

So if close miking I'm not surprised you need the pad (in mic or recorder).

That’s what I thought, but, even with the Schoeps, I still needed to use the pad, and the level controls were set to minimum.
Been through the menu, all seems fine, it’s OK though, I guess it is what it is.

[Hugh Robjohns]

On that Tascam the maximum input level with the pad engaged is only -14dBu ... which is quite low.

For example, if your sound source generates peaks at 94dB SPL (1 Pascal) which is easily possible when close miking a piano, say, then your MKH mic would hit that -14dBu clipping level with just 16dB of mic preamp gain.

I dont know what the minimum gain setting is in that Tascam, but it wouldn't be difficult to hit the end stops with loud sources!

[Arpangel]

On that Tascam the maximum input level with the pad engaged is only -14dBu ... which is quite low.

For example, if your sound source generates peaks at 94dB SPL (1 Pascal) which is easily possible when close miking a piano, say, then your MKH mic would hit that -14dBu clipping level with just 16dB of mic preamp gain.

I dont know what the minimum gain setting is in that Tascam, but it wouldn't be difficult to hit the end stops with loud sources!

Hmmm, yes, oh well, just have to keep the levels down, wonder why it’s like that?

[Hugh Robjohns]

Probably optimised for location recording with much less sensitive mics.

I doubt they gave much thought to people using a £500 recorder with £1,200 mics....

[James Perrett]

Fair enough, I'm unfamiliar with them.

It is well worth finding some of Mike's writing and reviews. His articles in various magazines played a big part in getting me interested in recording.

[Hugh Robjohns]

You could do worse than start here:

http://www.saturn-sound.com/Curio's/the ... 0index.htm

Mike was a bit of a 'mad scientist' type. Trained, I believe, by the GPO (forerunner of British Telecom) and worked in their research department coming up with clever telecoms technologies.

He had a fresh and inquisitive approach to audio recording, which became his major interest after retiring from BT. He spent money on good mics and speakers, but designed and built his own preamps, mixers and processors, usually in anonymous black boxes with (if you were lucky) dymo labels on the controls and connectors. It was all experimental stuff, but generally worked well and to high standards.

He released a lot of his eclectic recordings on his own labels, but also on some commercial labels and was well respected.

[Hugh Robjohns]

You could do worse than start here:

http://www.saturn-sound.com/Curio's/the ... 0index.htm

Mike was a bit of a 'mad scientist' type. Trained, I believe, by the GPO (forerunner of British Telecom) and worked in their research and training departments. He was a 'proper engineer' with a very pragmatic way.

He always had a fresh and inquisitive approach to audio recording, which became his major interest after retiring from BT. He spent money on good mics and speakers, but designed and built his own preamps, mixers and processors, usually in anonymous black boxes with (if you were lucky) dymo labels on the controls and connectors. It was all experimental stuff, but generally worked well and to high standards.

He released a lot of his eclectic recordings on his own labels, but also on some commercial labels and was well respected.

His obituary gives some insight here:

https://www.soundonsound.com/people/mike-skeet?amp=

As James says, many of us grew up reading his articles and reviews in the UK, which were always informative.

[jimjazzdad]

Deleted - never mind...

[Arpangel]

I doubt they gave much thought to people using a £500 recorder with £1,200 mics....

Interesting, I guess my DR100 is streaks ahead of any analogue reel-to-reel in terms of technical sound quality, on that basis, it's a not a weak link, and I'd rather be in a situation to use a £1,500 mic with a £500 recorder, than a £50 mic with a £2,000 recorder.
A cheap mic always sounds like a cheap mic, but the differences in recorders these days isn’t so noticeable, preamps excluded, if you’re going external.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I guess my DR100 is streaks ahead of any analogue reel-to-reel in terms of technical sound quality, on that basis, it's a not a weak link

Absolutely true.

I'd rather be in a situation to use a £1,500 mic with a £500 recorder, than a £50 mic with a £2,000 recorder.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree.

I wasn't suggesting you'd be wrong to use that combo — I do exactly the same — but just that I suspect the Tascam designers optimised the machine's gain structure for use with semi-pro mics which tend to be less sensitive.

[Arpangel]

I guess my DR100 is streaks ahead of any analogue reel-to-reel in terms of technical sound quality, on that basis, it's a not a weak link

Absolutely true.

I'd rather be in a situation to use a £1,500 mic with a £500 recorder, than a £50 mic with a £2,000 recorder.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree.

I wasn't suggesting you'd be wrong to use that combo — I do exactly the same — but just that I suspect the Tascam designers optimised the machine's gain structure for use with semi-pro mics which tend to be less sensitive.

Yes, maybe a good reason to use the line inputs with my preamps? let’s hope they are at "standard" line level. After all, maybe it's the quality of the preamps, line or mic, that determine the price on the more expensive recorders.