Audio interface; the best choices?

[g18llo]

This isn't a click-bait title, it's about choosing a new audio interface.

I currently have an Apollo X8 (not gen 2), but I've had various other interfaces over the years (RME UFX, Antelope Audio), and more recently I do very little actual recording. At most, it's a single vocal track, occasionally it'll be stereo keyboards, but certainly not drumkits/bands/live work etc.

About a month ago I started looking for a new audio interface, on the basis that I'd rather have one with less IO than the X8, but with more premium convertors. I have a USB Satellite Quad so I can still use my UAD plugins, I don't need to remain on their hardware. Obviously, I trawled through SOS's reviews and ended up with a short-list of (in no particular order):

Antelope Discrete 4 Pro.
Neumann MT48.
RME Babyface Pro FS.

I mix entirely on headphones (Neumann NDH30), and the professional work I output is playback of keyboards/vocals for live performances, rather than the traditional mixing of an entire track. For that reason, I'm drawn more towards mastering grade convertors/devices (feel free to correct this train of thought), and so ultimate convertor quality was my aim.

Should I add other interfaces to this list, perhaps I should get a top-end stereo DAC and a mid-range interface for the pre-amps/inputs, or perhaps the X8 is more than adequate. It'd be good to hear from people in a similar situation, with real-word experience that I'd be able to relate to. Price isn't an issue, particularly, but a £5k convertor would probably make my arse/wallet tweak!?!?

In summary, I need 2 decent pre-amp inputs (preferably with digital gain as I use the Sphere DLX), the best convertors for the price and a decent headphone output for the NDH30's.

[MOF]

The Prism interfaces have a good reputation.

[Hugh Robjohns]

This feels like a want rather than a need — there is really nothing lacking about the Apollo you already have. The sources you're recording from will almost certainly be the limiting factor rather than the interface.

However, if you simply must have the (currently) best converters, then you need to look at the top end RME ADI-2 models or the Lynx Hilo, and partner them with a high quality external stereo mic preamp. Grace Design m201, for example...

[g18llo]

This feels like a want rather than a need

Want/need; same word isn't it??

[RichardT]

The AD converters are rarely, probably never, the weak link in the recording chain when it comes to vocals.

And if you want to record keyboard sounds you could also consider using virtual instruments which would avoid the whole issue! My experience is that virtual instruments give much better results than keyboard recordings I have made.

So, you could consider sticking to your current interface for recording. I’m sure it’s good enough if you’re only doing a limited amount of that.

For playback, my own experience is that a good converter with a good headphone amp makes a huge difference. I’m not sure how much is down to the converters and how much the analogue electronics, but converters these days are extremely sophisticated. I would guess it’s mostly down to the quality of the amplification and power supplies.

I own five or so converters ranging from an NI Komplete Audio 6 (very murky) to a Naim stereo DAC, and it’s very clear that the expensive ones are much better than the cheap ones and their abilities do scale quite well with price.

So the key thing, if you want to follow this hybrid route, is to decide what budget you have, how this setup would work with your computer, what facilities you need, and see what products are out there.

[g18llo]

For playback, my own experience is that a good converter with a good headphone amp makes a huge difference. I’m not sure how much is down to the converters and how much the analogue electronics, but converters these days are extremely sophisticated. I would guess it’s mostly down to the quality of the amplification and power supplies.

The source recording isn't my issue, I don't feel, it's the accuracy of the mixes (that are used for commercial playback) that I feel I need to improve hence possibly looking at a mastering-grade DAC for that single purpose, i.e. headphone monitoring/mixing.

[RichardT]

That makes sense.

If you want to optimise playback to the highest level, you could consider not only a DAC but also top-of-the-line phones. Just like DACs, the best phones really are better than the very good.

[g18llo]

That makes sense.

If you want to optimise playback to the highest level, you could consider not only a DAC but also top-of-the-line phones. Just like DACs, the best phones really are better than the very good.

I use the Neumann NDH30s, although I have a pair of Audeze phones too but I tend to "prefer" the Neumann's.

[Nazard]

looking at a mastering-grade DAC for that single purpose, i.e. headphone monitoring/mixing.

I have a Lynx Hilo, (from 2012), whuch is the centre of my audio setup. I can drive either a pair of active monitors or a pair of passives from the output, plus the headphone amp is exceptional, has its own DAC, presents a wonderful soundstage and has masses of drive. It requires careful setup, as it is very configurable, but the manuals are excellent and the firmware updates have transformed mine in the time I have had it. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another if anything happened to this one. (Hilo 2 doesn't have anything new that would make me upgrade at present, but ask me in a couple of years!).

Here are some of the possible uses:

https://www.lynxstudio.com/products/hilo2/

[SafeandSound Mastering]

" it's the accuracy of the mixes (that are used for commercial playback) that I feel I need to improve hence possibly looking at a mastering-grade DAC for that single purpose, i.e. headphone monitoring/mixing."#

I am not convinced a better DAC will be the answer for you. Having a great DAC can be amazing when monitors, amps and room are in great shape.

And I do not wish to veer too of topic, though most posts have as we drill down into what this is all about.

What I find is a great many people do not understand is that acoustic treatment and 1/2 decent monitors is what you need to produce good mixes. (I am quite sure I could do a good mix on £400.00 monitors if I had to. Assuming the room was very good.) Of course great monitors are better for good reasons but that is really just to stress a point about the room.

To make consistently good mixes you have to have accuracy of monitoring and room comes first for me, then monitors.

Headphones have plenty of problems for mixing in my view and I simply could not stand it myself. Others do and if it works great. It is possible and if great mixes come from headphones I have the utmost respect for that skill.

Being fooled by phantom (non existent) problems can slow your progress down very significantly. In accuracy you remove about 50pct or more of problems that do not even exist and this greatly speeds up learning and mixing and greatly enhances consistency.

In saying that many people have trouble with treating a room, renting, domestic situation, other people etc.

However the fact remains that anything else is a compromise and with compromises come more problems that need dealing with. And those problems include some tail chasing as to why mixes are not working properly when they are moved to another system, and there are potentially very many mistakes to make.

As a professional engineer it never ceases to amaze me that people think they can do consistent, superb audio work without very good rooms and monitors. Too many take oft rare exceptions for rules.

Anyone is free to try any thing and any method they wish to, it is a free world and creativity is a wonderful thing.

Quality, accurate monitoring, for myself at least, is not something negotiable as part of getting consistent results.

I appreciate it is difficult when it comes to speakers in a room, it always has been difficult in untreated rooms. If headphones is all you can go with and quite a few people do then I wish you well on your journey mixing with them.

And be extremely careful with your hearing and do not let the volume creep and creep upwards.

And NEVER put headphones on anywhere in the world without the source audio playing in them before they go over your ears (even in your own studio to reinforce the habit).

[g18llo]

I am not convinced a better DAC will be the answer for you. Having a great DAC can be amazing when monitors, amps and room are in great shape.

I work only on headphones, primarily because of the effort/cost of the above; I have no desire to move away from headphones because of the learning/cost curve.

[SafeandSound Mastering]

In which case I you only really have exceptionally well mixed tracks to reference. I do not think a DAC alone will bring about a bad mix to good mix situation.

Volume matched by ear alone, just pull them down till they match your DAW mix session volume. You can use a plug in for that but I never bother and just run a ref on its own track direct to stereo output.

All the best with it.

[Bob Bickerton]

As someone who uses NDH-30s with the Apollo 8 (v1) to check mixes, I can’t imagine that upgrading your DAC will solve the problem with your mixes. Your current system is perfectly fine and the issues with your mix (whatever they are) will not magically disappear simply because you have an improved DAC!

Personally I prefer to mix on speakers and then check on phones, so perhaps the proposal to consider speaker/treatment set-up is worth considering.

Bob

[RichardT]

Bob makes a very good point!

If you’re not happy with your mixes, upgrading from what you have is not the solution. If you’re generally quite happy with your mixes, that’s when you’d potentially get the benefit of the very, very best gear.

You mentioned the accuracy of your mixes. Can you explain what you mean?

[g18llo]

Personally I prefer to mix on speakers and then check on phones, so perhaps the proposal to consider speaker/treatment set-up is worth considering.

Unfortunately not, I've already been down the route of finding a speaker/room setup that'd match the quality of the NDH30 headphones and it's £20k upwards given my workspace; simply not an option. Also, I'm so used to headphones that the several months it'd take to get used to speakers isn't an option either; in truth, even with an unlimited budget I still wouldn't go down that route.

[g18llo]

If you’re generally quite happy with your mixes, that’s when you’d potentially get the benefit of the very, very best gear.

Which I am, hence looking to upgrade. It's more about time-saving on building a mix rather than specifically improving said mix overall.

You mentioned the accuracy of your mixes. Can you explain what you mean?

Mixing tracks for live-playback, on 50k line arrays, is a different beast to mixing a track for general consumption on headphones, home speakers, the car etc. You need to be highly accurate with build-up on certain frequencies, so quite a bit of the effort is analysing/adjusting that within the known parameters I've learned over the years. What I've noticed, each time I've upgraded my audio interface is that I do less of the "mastering/analysing", as the convertors in the audio interface themselves improve and consequently present the audio more consistently.

There's quite a bit of volume/track/EQ automation in my mixes to mitigate for the build-up of those frequencies, I think a more accurate/neutral DAC will mean I can get to the basic mix more quickly and with less automation/editing. Some decisions are based on knowing what a line array sounds like, from experience, rather than being able to hear/see the issues at the mix stage.

[Bob Bickerton]

Interesting….. so you’re saying your recall of the audio signature of a 50k line array throughout the audience space is more accurate than the minuscule difference gained by upgrading your DAC?

Oh well……

Bob

[g18llo]

Interesting….. so you’re saying your recall of the audio signature of a 50k line array throughout the audience space is more accurate than the minuscule difference gained by upgrading your DAC?

Oh well……

Bob

I'm saying I can adjust the mix, before it's played on a line array, knowing from experience how large-scale systems represent certain sounds/frequencies in a different manner to small-scale systems, home hifi, car speakers etc.

I did post along the lines that the change of DAC isn't to improve the mix, or its translation on a line array, but to decrease the editing/automation/workflow. That seemed reasonable to me; clearly not.

[ajay_m]

Modern gear, even at modest price points, is so mind bogglingly good that it is only ever going to bring psychological benefits in upgrading it.
Think of the great albums made in the 70s where you had maybe 60dB dynamic range and noise floor with tape, and fairly primitive eq, no automation, etc.
Speaker and headphone technology was also far less advanced, rare earth magnets didn't exist, amps that output more than 200Wrms were cutting edge, the state of the art in power semiconductors was the 2n3055.
Creating a good mix is 99% artistic talent. Gear fetishes are like saying "if only I had a tube of genuine vintage oil paint I could create a Leonardo".
You see this with golfers, always changing clubs to try and magically up their game, etc etc.
I am but a rank amateur in music and my golf is terrible, but if I wanted to improve in either, I'd spend money of getting training from a professional. Not on new gear.

[Arpangel]

This feels like a want rather than a need

Want/need; same word isn't it??

When I "need" something it means I can't do what I want to do without it, nothing, I'm out of action if I don't get it.
Wanting something is when I don't really need it, but think it "may" help me in some as yet undefined way, either that or it looks cool!
I'm in a similar albeit more down-market situation, I have a Behringer 1820/8200 combi, it's fine, more than good enough for me, but I sometimes have pangs about replacing those with a Focusrite Clarett 6, my personal preference, as I don’t use half the inputs on my current set-up, but why should I? it sounds fine as it is, replacing it is hassle, money, when all I need to do is just ignore the unused inputs, it's not an issue, besides, they may come in handy at some point.
I can't recommend an interface, it's too personal, we all have our preferences sound wise, and basically, it comes down to what facilities you need.
That's my perspective.

[RichardT]

Modern gear, even at modest price points, is so mind bogglingly good that it is only ever going to bring psychological benefits in upgrading it.
Think of the great albums made in the 70s where you had maybe 60dB dynamic range and noise floor with tape, and fairly primitive eq, no automation, etc.
Speaker and headphone technology was also far less advanced, rare earth magnets didn't exist, amps that output more than 200Wrms were cutting edge, the state of the art in power semiconductors was the 2n3055.
Creating a good mix is 99% artistic talent. Gear fetishes are like saying "if only I had a tube of genuine vintage oil paint I could create a Leonardo".
You see this with golfers, always changing clubs to try and magically up their game, etc etc.
I am but a rank amateur in music and my golf is terrible, but if I wanted to improve in either, I'd spend money of getting training from a professional. Not on new gear.

I don't think this is true Ajay, for me at least! I have experienced significant benefits from upgrading my DAC/headphone amp and headphones. Everything is clearer and problems stick out very clearly. It's much easier to see what needs to be done. I agree that DA converters themselves are all very good these days, but that still leaves the amplification driving the phones, and the phones themselves, as variable factors.

[RichardT]

Personally I prefer to mix on speakers and then check on phones, so perhaps the proposal to consider speaker/treatment set-up is worth considering.

Unfortunately not, I've already been down the route of finding a speaker/room setup that'd match the quality of the NDH30 headphones and it's £20k upwards given my workspace; simply not an option. Also, I'm so used to headphones that the several months it'd take to get used to speakers isn't an option either; in truth, even with an unlimited budget I still wouldn't go down that route.

Yes, getting speakers and a room that matches a very good pair of phones is extremely expensive. But it is very helpful to listen for certain things even on a modest pair of speakers. Dynamics, stereo spread and low frequencies sound very different. I use phones for the majority of the time, but also cross check on speakers. Often I come across things that are far too loud on speakers but sound fine on phones. It might simply be worth hiring a local studio from time to time to give yourself access to good monitors!

[jbrakebill]

Hi... I have the Neumann NDH30s too. Wonderful headphones. I use an iD14Mk2 and the headphone output (using USB-C) is very good. However, I decided to buy a Topping L30 II headphone amp for the iD14's 3-4 outputs and the NDH30s sound incredible! More detailed, effortless and revealing. I'm a huge proponent of separate HP amps. Maybe just add a L30 II or L50 to a stereo line out on your Apollo 8 and be done?