Can someone help me with routing please: Mackie ProFXV3+

[alexis]

Hi, I wonder if anyone can help me use this mixer to accomplish the desired functions I've listed below. I haven't been able to figure out how to do that, and so have thrown in various other pieces of equipment to try to accomplish this, but (as in another thread elsewhere), those approaches have introduced problems of their own.

I think after a while I may have overcomplicated things, so I thought backing up and redefining again what I wanted to get done on stage, then working forward again from there (as suggested by wise voices in the other thread!) was the best thing to do.

As seen below, I have a set of goals during performances, and a very similar but definitely non-identical set of goals during practices.

Thank you for any suggestions!

EQUIPMENT AVAILABLE:
Mackie ProFX12V3+ personal mixer
https://mackie.com/img/file_resources/P ... IES_OM.pdf

Soundcraft ui24R mixing board

Stereo keyboard

Microphone (Earthworks SR117, also have available EV N/D767a)

Bits available: Radial Pro D1 and D2 DI boxes; ART SPlitComPro mic splitter; Radial Stage Bug SB-6 isolator

Goals During Performances:
1. Run stereo keys to Sound Craft mixer (Currently this is coming into the Sound Craft as two 1/4" line inputs. Can be changed, but would be a pain in the neck as we're close to running out of inputs into the Sound Craft, and it may take moving a bunch of other players inputs around, affecting the digital mixer there, etc.)

2. Run vocal to Stage Craft mixer (Currently this is coming into the Sound Craft as a mic level XLR. As above, can be changed, but would be a hassle at this point)

-Run keys (mono is fine) and vox to IEMs, and be able to:
-Adjust the volume of each (keys and vox) in the IEMs independent of each other, and
-Adjust the volume of each (keys and vox) in the IEMs without affecting FOH mix

Goals During Practices:
1. Same as goals during performances, with the addition of:
2. Ability to mute the vocal to FOH, while keeping it in my IEM, for working out back up singing parts before possibly one day incorporating them into the performance

It's this last part that I can't figure out how to do with the equipment I have listed above. I know it may be unusual, trivial-sounding etc., but it's important to me

Some random facts about the Mackie mixer, as I understand them currently:
-The MON (monitor) aux knobs on each channel are pre-fader

-The FX aux knobs and FX send jack are post fader

-Any channel can be routed with a switch to main L/R, and/or SUB OUT 1-2 (in addition to sending to the MON and FX aux buses with knobs on each channel).

-L/R signal outputs include main outs (choice of XLRs or 1/4" TRSs), control room outs, and phone outs

-There is a SUB OUT 1,2 pair of 1/4" outs as well.

-There is a 1/4" Monitor send bus in the master section, sending a signal of all channels with the MON knob turned up more than zero. The overall level is controlled with a separate pre-fader knob, "Aux Master".

-There is also a 1/4" FX send bus in the master section, sending another copy of the dry signal, this time for all channels with the FX knob turned up more than zero. The overall level is also controlled with a separate pre-fader knob, "Aux Master".

-There is an FX to MON knob in the master section for the stated reason

There is an FX fader in the master section, routing into the master bus, for controlling volume of wet with dry signals. It has an additional routing switch to the SUB OUT 1,2 bus.

-There is also a SUB OUT 1-2 Fader in the master section, for controlling the volume leaving the SUB OUT stereo bus (as above, signals are routed to that bus with a routing switch on each channel). It has an additional routing switch to the main L/R bus.

Thanks, please LMK if any questions

[Aled Hughes]

If you can sort out the gain problem mentioned in the other thread (and you should be able to sort it, I think), you can do all this easily with just the Soundcraft and no extra equipment.

You can set up your own tablet or phone to control your own mix, while locking out access to other mixes (such as FOH, other member's IEMs etc). The Souncraft also has a handy "more me" screen, where you get a simple crossfader to balance your own channel(s) vs tghe rest of the mix.

To mute the vocal to FOH but keep it in your IEMs, you need to make sure that "Aux send mute inheritance" in the Souncraft settings is set to "OFF" (this is a global setting I think, affecting all channels). Or you can simply pull the fader down in the FOH mix (make sure all IEM sends are set to pre-fade! Which they all should be by default on the UI24R)

I'd recommend taking to time to learn the UI24R properly if that's what the band is using - especially setting gains etc. There is a separate fader for the input gain (accessed via the Mix/Gain button - this is the same page that you set phantom power etc, which your Earthworks mic will need). Be fairly conservative with the gains, and keep it FAR from clipping (peaks don't need to be higher than -12dB really) - from memory, the input level is represented by a blue line on the UI24 fader/meter, and the post-fader level is yellow.

[Sam Spoons]

Aled has suggested what was going to be my second suggestion. My first doesn't solve your rehearsal problem of being able to mute your mic to FOH while leaving it live in the IEMs without spending some more money. I also question your desire for stereo keys in the FOH but mono in your IEMs (but it is irrelevant to the plan). And your use of the unbalanced line inputs on the Soundcraft (a recipe for noise), is there a way around this (maybe by using the keys in mono to save a channel for something else)?

However I would set it up like this :-

Mic to splitter then one split to FOH the other to the Mackie (this should solve your mic level issues detailed elsewhere as effectively the mic is going straight to the FOH mixer).

Keys to the two Radial DIs with the DI output going to FOH and the thru to the Mackie. No need for messing about with aux sends but you will need two mic channels on the FOH desk. Your keyboard probably has a mono sum output (usually the Left IME) if you can only spare one channel.

The mic mute problem is an easy fix if you have a few quid available https://orchid-electronics.co.uk/Mic_Mute_lite.htm I'm petty sure Jon from Orchid would make you a custom version with a splitter built in.

[alexis]

Thankyou, Aled!

If you can sort out the gain problem mentioned in the other thread (and you should be able to sort it, I think), you can do all this easily with just the Soundcraft and no extra equipment.

You can set up your own tablet or phone to control your own mix, while locking out access to other mixes (such as FOH, other member's IEMs etc). The Souncraft also has a handy "more me" screen, where you get a simple crossfader to balance your own channel(s) vs tghe rest of the mix.

Replacing the mixer with a tablet ... I had thought of that at one time, but concerns about the reliability of the wireless connection from the Sound Craft, potential tablet reliability issues, etc. kept me from going there. We all use one tablet already as a music stand, so I'd need to figure out the ergonomics of a second one. I'll reconsider that - thank you!
.

To mute the vocal to FOH but keep it in your IEMs, you need to make sure that "Aux send mute inheritance" in the Souncraft settings is set to "OFF" (this is a global setting I think, affecting all channels). Or you can simply pull the fader down in the FOH mix (make sure all IEM sends are set to pre-fade! Which they all should be by default on the UI24R)

Thanks for that heads up, I'll look into this further. Ideally it would be something I could toggle from my keys position, and it would have to not affect other vocalists' FOH feeds.
.

I'd recommend taking to time to learn the UI24R properly if that's what the band is using - especially setting gains etc. There is a separate fader for the input gain (accessed via the Mix/Gain button - this is the same page that you set phantom power etc, which your Earthworks mic will need). Be fairly conservative with the gains, and keep it FAR from clipping (peaks don't need to be higher than -12dB really) - from memory, the input level is represented by a blue line on the UI24 fader/meter, and the post-fader level is yellow.

Yes, I've been getting a stronger and stronger feeling I need to take more ownership of some aspects of the UI24R, I've downloaded the manual, time to start studying.

Thank you again, Aled Hughes!

[Aled Hughes]

Ideally it would be something I could toggle from my keys position, and it would have to not affect other vocalists' FOH feeds.

Muting your own channel in FOH won't affect any of the other vocalist's channels.

I understand the concerns about reyling on a tablet Wifi connection. My UI24R has been rock solid since updating the firmware, and I'm happy to rely on it now. If you find it to be reliable, then that's almost certainly the easiest route for you, as it involves the least possible amount of equipment.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Ah... I had in the back of my mind that you were sending line levels to foh at one time, but I thought that problem had gone away as you were using mic splits and di boxes... ho hum.

With the situation and requirements you describe, this is how I would do it (in two variants).

1. Invest in an ART DTI box. I know... more expense, but a major problem solvers...

Keys out into DTI box inputs using TS to XLRm cables. Link through from TRS input sockets to Mackie desk line inputs using TS-TS cables. (All the input sockets are wired in parallel, so you're essentially connecting the keys straight to the Mackie, with the DTI box taking a split.

Output of DTI box goes to FOH as two transformer safety isolated balanced line level feeds. Use XLR or TRS connections as appropriate to the available stage box connections.

The keyboard master volume will affect the level going to both foh and mackie, but nothing you do on the mackie will affect foh.

Normally, I'd split the vox mic using a transformer splitter, between foh and mackie, so they can work independently... but the low volume issue and the need to mute the mic send preclude that option.

So... I'd connect the mic directly to the mackie (supplying phantom), and set the mic preamp gain appropriately using the mackie meters.

I'd then dial up the prefade aux send on the mic channel (only), and take the Aux output to the Radial Pro DI using a TS-TS cable. DI box balanced mic level output goes to FOH mic input via XLR.

Again, the DI box will provide transformer safety isolation between mackie and foh.

In this way, you have plenty of gain available via the Mackie preamp and aux level controls, so should be able to satisfy the FOH level problem. And all three feeds to foh are transformer isolated.

And you can mute the vox mic send to foh by simply dialling out the aux send master.

2. If you don't want to invest in the DTI box there is an alternative, although it would involve making two special leads and not having transformer isolation or balanced signals on the keyboard feeds to foh... which isn't the end of the world as they're feeding line inputs (and thus no risk of phantom power to break the mackie).

This option requires 'sniffer cables' to plug into the mackie keyboard channel inserts.

A 'sniffer cable' has a TRS plug at the insert end, and a TS plug at the output to foh end. Using unbalanced cable, the TS end is wired as normal and st the TRS end the signal core is looped through both tip and ring connections (with screen to sleeve as normal).

By shorting the tip and ring contacts together the channel insert send is directed straight back to the return, ensuring the channel works as normal on the mackie... but the signal is also despatched to the foh desk as a (slightly low) line level feed.

Obviously, the level out to foh is dependent on the key channel preamp gains, but the insert point is pre-fader so won't be affected by your mackie iem mixing.

To be honest, this is a technique I'd use in a home studio rather than on stage as there are associated risks, but it is the cheapest option.

I hope that lot helps in some small way...

[alexis]

Thanks, Sam, as always!

Aled has suggested what was going to be my second suggestion. My first doesn't solve your rehearsal problem of being able to mute your mic to FOH while leaving it live in the IEMs without spending some more money.

Thanks for that, I think I burned through more than the allotted share of brain cells trying to do figure it out using the mixer alone - at least now I'm sure it can't be done.
.

I also question your desire for stereo keys in the FOH but mono in your IEMs (but it is irrelevant to the plan). And your use of the unbalanced line inputs on the Soundcraft (a recipe for noise), is there a way around this (maybe by using the keys in mono to save a channel for something else)?

Sorry - poor communication on my part. Stereo keys into IEMs is what I have and prefer, I was just saying I'd accept mono if I had to if that's what it took to be able to mute vox from going to FOH while keeping it in IEMs.

Also poorly written on my part - I've got two TRS cables (so balanced?) going from the keys to the stereo StageBug isolator, and on to the Sound Craft.
.

However I would set it up like this :-
Mic to splitter then one split to FOH the other to the Mackie (this should solve your mic level issues detailed elsewhere as effectively the mic is going straight to the FOH mixer).

I only wish I knew with certainty whether the MON output from the Mackie is inherently at lower volume than the direct signal (direct as you have outlined above, via the splitter), or whether it's something I'm doing wrong in the Mackie (despite looking at all the knobs and settings a thousand times). I wanted to use the Mackie's MON output so I could turn the vocals down from my keys position when I have screaming type songs. Right now the volume coming out of the Mackie MON is too low ...

But I guess that horse has left the barn, and I'll have to depend totally on mic technique to control the volume winding up at the Sound Craft ... as you suggest, time to go with the mic directly to the splitter and on to FOH.
.

Keys to the two Radial DIs with the DI output going to FOH and the thru to the Mackie. No need for messing about with aux sends but you will need two mic channels on the FOH desk. Your keyboard probably has a mono sum output (usually the Left IME) if you can only spare one channel.

I'll be at the practice hall this evening, will see how we're doing with XLR inputs, thank you.
.

The mic mute problem is an easy fix if you have a few quid available https://orchid-electronics.co.uk/Mic_Mute_lite.htm I'm petty sure Jon from Orchid would make you a custom version with a splitter built in.

I'm still in mourning that I can't solve this problem without adding another piece of equipment, especially one that I need to have underfoot and keep an eye on the red light, but I'll look at it as just another character-building life experience .

I actually already own an old mic mute foot pedal, I'll see if I can find it, see if it has a red light, and if it is pop free in use. If not, there is at least one option here in the States that satisfies those two criteria (https://www.soundpro.com/content/produc ... o_1109.pdf, and reviews say it is pop free) - and many others available here with the reviews that are not kind!

I'm very tempted to contact the Orchid man "Jon" you referenced - a combination splitter and mic mute box would be very sweet - getting rid of one box that needs to be set up.

Thank you again, Sam!

[alexis]

Thank you as always, Hugh!

...

With the situation and requirements you describe, this is how I would do it (in two variants).

1. Invest in an ART DTI box. I know... more expense, but a major problem solvers...

Keys out into DTI box inputs using TS to XLRm cables. Link through from TRS input sockets to Mackie desk line inputs using TS-TS cables. (All the input sockets are wired in parallel, so you're essentially connecting the keys straight to the Mackie, with the DTI box taking a split.

Output of DTI box goes to FOH as two transformer safety isolated balanced line level feeds. Use XLR or TRS connections as appropriate to the available stage box connections.

The keyboard master volume will affect the level going to both foh and mackie, but nothing you do on the mackie will affect foh.

I currently own one a Radial Pro D2, https://www.radialeng.com/product/prod2, would that be a suitable replacement for the ART DTI box?
.

Normally, I'd split the vox mic using a transformer splitter, between foh and mackie, so they can work independently... but the low volume issue and the need to mute the mic send preclude that option.

So... I'd connect the mic directly to the mackie (supplying phantom), and set the mic preamp gain appropriately using the mackie meters.

I'd then dial up the prefade aux send on the mic channel (only), and take the Aux output to the Radial Pro DI using a TS-TS cable. DI box balanced mic level output goes to FOH mic input via XLR.

Again, the DI box will provide transformer safety isolation between mackie and foh.

In this way, you have plenty of gain available via the Mackie preamp and aux level controls, so should be able to satisfy the FOH level problem. And all three feeds to foh are transformer isolated.

And you can mute the vox mic send to foh by simply dialling out the aux send master.
...

The bolded part is the root of so many of my problems, I believe - the connections you describe are as I've had it connected, but this results in the output coming out of the Mackie MON > Radial Pro D1 > Soundcraft FOH being very low in the PAs, with troubleshooting on two occasions with two different people operating the Soundcraft while I'm at my mic position. That's the reason I reached for that additional mic preamp I've mentioned elsewhere.

Since you've suggested it shouldn't be a lower output signal reaching the Soundcraft under these conditions - I'm headed over to the practice hall this afternoon to try to troubleshoot it myself. I think I should be able to figure out the Soundcraft input trim levels and other portions to be able to do that.
.

I hope that lot helps in some small way...

Immensely, as always - thank you, Hugh!

[Hugh Robjohns]

I currently own one a Radial Pro D2, https://www.radialeng.com/product/prod2, would that be a suitable replacement for the ART DTI box?

Under normal circumstances, where everything from the stage is at mic level, it would be ideal, since the output from a DI box is mic level.

However, you've said you have to send line level, which requires a line isolation box, not a DI box. The DTI is one such device... with two channels and the capability of taking a split from the inputs.

Your Radial stage bug sb6 is also one such device, but it doesn't have the link-through sockets to pass the keyboard signals on to the mackie desk.

Of course... you could make up custom splitter cables to allow use of the SB6...

The bolded part is the root of so many of my problems, I believe - the connections you describe are as I've had it connected, but this results in the output coming out of the Mackie

MON > Radial Pro D1 > Soundcraft FOH being very low in the PAs, with troubleshooting on two occasions with two different people operating the Soundcraft while I'm at my mic position. That's the reason I reached for that additional mic preamp I've mentioned elsewhere.

If we assume the cabling is correct, and it's connected to a mic input on the FOH console set up appropriately, it can only be a gain structure problem in the Mackie.

Check that you have sensible mic level on the Mackie meters (averaging 0VU), and that both channel aux and aux master are set around 2 o'clock. You can turn them both higher if necessary...

As an experiment, you could also try swapping the proD1 for the stage bug sb6. That will output a MUCH higher level to FOH.

[alexis]

Perfectly understood, Hugh, thank you.

I went online to look at splitter cables ... couldn't find anything that didn't convert a TRS to two TS connections. Is that what you were referring to (I think that means I'd be running an unbalanced signal to the FOH out of the Stage Bug?)?

Also - why does the Radial Pro D1 and D2 output a much softer signal than the Stage Bug? Does the Radial Pro D1/2 attenuate the Mackie MON out line level signal to mic level?

If so, andthinking about it some more, the vocal connections we're describing (Mic > Mackie in > Mackie MON out > Radial Pro D1 > Mic input of Soundcraft) have the vocal signal being boosted in the Mackie preamp, leaving the Mackie through the MON output at line level;attenuated in the Radial Pro D1, then boosted again in the Soundcraft preamp ... if I'm thinking about that correctly

Thank you again!

[Sam Spoons]

The Stage Bug outputs the same level as it receives because it's a line isolator, a DI box is designed to take a line (or instrument) level input and attenuate it to mic level so that it can be used to feed a mic input, by convention stage multicores use exclusively mic inputs (mostly...).

Both boxes can take an unbalanced input and convert it into a balanced output.

[Sam Spoons]

If so, andthinking about it some more, the vocal connections we're describing (Mic > Mackie in > Mackie MON out > Radial Pro D1 > Mic input of Soundcraft) have the vocal signal being boosted in the Mackie preamp, leaving the Mackie through the MON output at line level;attenuated in the Radial Pro D1, then boosted again in the Soundcraft preamp ... if I'm thinking about that correctly

Yes, if you use your mic splitter box you avoid all the level changes between the mic and the Soundcraft mic input.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I went online to look at splitter cables ... couldn't find anything that didn't convert a TRS to two TS connections. Is that what you were referring to...

No. It's something you'd probably have to make yourself.

I think that means I'd be running an unbalanced signal to the FOH out of the Stage Bug?)?

I was suggesting splitting the (unbalanced) signal on the way into the stagebug. The transformer inside the stagebug would still provide a balanced output to FOH.

Also - why does the Radial Pro D1 and D2 output a much softer signal than the Stage Bug?

We've been over this before when I explained the differences and applications of DI boxes and line isolators. Try this:

https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advi ... em-solvers

Fundamentally, a DI box uses a transformer with something like a 10:1 ratio, while a line isolators transformer has a 1:1 ratio. This means the signal coming out of a line isolator is the same level as the input. Line in gives line out.

The signal coming out of a DI box is 1/10th the level of the input. So line in gives mic level out.

Does the Radial Pro D1/2 attenuate the Mackie MON out line level signal to mic level?

Yes.

If so, and thinking about it some more, the vocal connections we're describing (Mic > Mackie in > Mackie MON out > Radial Pro D1 > Mic input of Soundcraft) have the vocal signal being boosted in the Mackie preamp, leaving the Mackie through the MON output at line level;attenuated in the Radial Pro D1, then boosted again in the Soundcraft preamp ... if I'm thinking about that correctly

Yes... which is why I said I would normally split the mic signal directly, and each mixer would then amplify as required.

But your wish to easily mute the FOH send made that simple approach impractical.

It is true that passing the signal through both Mackie and Soundcraft preamps (and the Rolls when you added that) isn't ideal from a technical noise and distortion point of view, in practice it is normally an acceptable compromise given good gain structuring.

I'm still struggling to understand how a line level aux out via a DI box is too low for a Soundcraft mic input. There's something very wrong there, like a pad engaged at the Souncraft end, or wrong or defective cables in use, or really bad gain structuring in the Mackie... or a really quiet singing voice!

[Sam Spoons]

Can you alter your patches on your keyboards to be mono? That would send the same to both left and right outputs and you could use one for your IEM mix and the other for FOH, and that removes another level of complexity though it does mean you're IEM keyboard feed would be mono (obviously). I assume you only have one keyboard?

[alexis]

...

1. Invest in an ART DTI box. ...

Lo and behold, checking in my garage box, I have one!
.

Keys out into DTI box inputs using TS to XLRm cables.

I own TRS-XLRm cables, is there a drawback to using those instead?
.

Link through from TRS input sockets to Mackie desk line inputs using TS-TS cables. (All the input sockets are wired in parallel, so you're essentially connecting the keys straight to the Mackie, with the DTI box taking a split.

Similar question, I have TRS-TRS cables. Can I use those instead?

Thank you!

[alexis]

..

For the first time ever I got a beautiful stereo piano sound at this location tonight! Thank you, Hugh and everyone!

First, this configuration had the loudest hum/buzz I've ever heard:

Keys L/R out > ART DTI in via TRS-TRS > Soundcraft FOH via TRS-TRS

I then inserted my Radial Stage Bug SN-6 Balanced/Unbalanced Isolator, and the hum/ buzz went away completely, and I heard the clearest piano I've ever heard in this location besides through IEMs:

Keys L/R out > ART DTI in via TRS-TRS > Stage Bug in via TRS-TRS > Soundcraft FOH via TRS-TRS

I don't know what's up with the buzz/why it went away by adding a second isolator (Stage Bug) downstream to the first (ART DTI) ... even though things are working great piano wise now, if anyone had a comment/suggestion I'd love to hear please!

The only thing left to do is run the L/R piano signals from the ART DTI's inputs (??) to a Mackie channel's inputs.

Thank you, again!

[alexis]

...

Normally, I'd split the vox mic using a transformer splitter, between foh and mackie, so they can work independently... but the low volume issue and the need to mute the mic send preclude that option.

So... I'd connect the mic directly to the mackie (supplying phantom), and set the mic preamp gain appropriately using the mackie meters.

I'd then dial up the prefade aux send on the mic channel (only), and take the Aux output to the Radial Pro DI using a TS-TS cable. DI box balanced mic level output goes to FOH mic input via XLR.

Again, the DI box will provide transformer safety isolation between mackie and foh.

In this way, you have plenty of gain available via the Mackie preamp and aux level controls, so should be able to satisfy the FOH level problem. And all three feeds to foh are transformer isolated.

And you can mute the vox mic send to foh by simply dialling out the aux send master.

...

Today for the first time I got a clear vocal signal as loud as anyone else's - thank you, everyone!

(And no mic preamp needed! )

The thing that made the difference was my spending time on the Soundcraft FOH controls for the first time. I can't actually recall anything set horribly wrong, but apparently whatever I did there made it all OK since I didn't make any other changes.

My signal path was unchanged from what I've had for a while (I was prepared to rewire as suggested above, but got it working before I had to make changes):


Mic > ART splitter via XLRf-XLRm

Vox Path One: Main out from splitter into Mackie personal mixer Channel 1 via XLRf-XLRm > Mackie MON aux bus in > Mackie MON aux bus out > Radial Pro D1 DI via TS-TS > Soundcraft FOH via XLRf-XLRm

Vox Path Two: Isolator out from splitter into Mackie personal mixer Channel 2 via XLRf-XLRm

So now, if I want to:
-Selectively mute vox to FOH while preserving it in my IEMs, I mute Mackie Channel 1.

-Adjist vox in IEMs without affecting FOH, I adjust Mackie Channel 2.

- Adjust vox going to FOH, I adjust master MON aux controls.

I think it might have been that FOH settings were resulting in my volume being too low, I'm not sure.

I am going to go back and confirm all is good, but I think it is.

[Aled Hughes]

Good to hear !

Now then…

Keys L/R out > ART DTI in via TRS-TRS > Stage Bug in via TRS-TRS > Soundcraft FOH via TRS-TRS

If you’d remove the ART and the Radial from that chain, you’ll most likely still get that lovely piano sound, with two less pieces of equipment to set up!

[Hugh Robjohns]

Lo and behold, checking in my garage box, I have one!

Yay. Happy news!

I own TRS-XLRm cables, is there a drawback to using those instead?

It all depends on whether the keyboard has a ring contact, or not. It probably has, so give it a go. It'll either work perfectly, or sound very thin and low level.

Similar question, I have TRS-TRS cables. Can I use those instead?

Yes.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I then inserted my Radial Stage Bug SN-6 Balanced/Unbalanced Isolator, and the hum/ buzz went away completely, and I heard the clearest piano I've ever heard in this location besides through IEMs:

Keys L/R out > ART DTI in via TRS-TRS > Stage Bug in via TRS-TRS > Soundcraft FOH via TRS-TRS

I have no idea what's going on there. Two line isolators makes no sense at all, so there's some small detail in the connections somewhere that is awry.

My first thought is the TRS cables from the keyboard. I'm always wRy about TRS cables in unbalanced outputs.

But I'm really pleased you have arrived at a good sounding solution.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I had a thought as to what Knight have been going on....

Keys into DTI. Fine.

DTI out to FOH should have been hum free because of the transformer isolation.

But where did you connect the split to the Mackie desk?

If you took that from the output side of the DTI (the same side as the FOH feed) you'd create the mother of all ground loops between the FOH and Mackie desks... I which case, sticking the StageBug in the way would recreate the transformer isolation needed and make the hum go away.

If that was the situation, then try connecting the Mackie desk to the INPUT side of the DTI and take the StageBug out of the FOH connection.

Obviously, you might need to mess around with cables to make that work.

I normally go TS (or TRS) to male XLRm for the keyboard to DTI connection, and then TRS-TRS for the DTI to Mackie line in connection.

Let me know if any of this is relevant....

[alexis]

I had a thought as to what Knight have been going on....

Keys into DTI. Fine.

DTI out to FOH should have been hum free because of the transformer isolation.

But where did you connect the split to the Mackie desk?

If you took that from the output side of the DTI (the same side as the FOH feed) you'd create the mother of all ground loops between the FOH and Mackie desks... I which case, sticking the StageBug in the way would recreate the transformer isolation needed and make the hum go away.

If that was the situation, then try connecting the Mackie desk to the INPUT side of the DTI and take the StageBug out of the FOH connection.

Obviously, you might need to mess around with cables to make that work.

I normally go TS (or TRS) to male XLRm for the keyboard to DTI connection, and then TRS-TRS for the DTI to Mackie line in connection.

Let me know if any of this is relevant....

Hi Hugh!

Heading to the venue tomorrow. We have a performance (mega gulp!), but I'm able to get there a few hours early, which I'm definitely going to do to recreate the set up, and also try out the TRS-XLRm cables I have.

A little apprehensive (was it just a dream that it worked well ... will I forget how I connected even though I took pics ... will it not work for some unknown reason?), and also excited!

Will get back to you ...

Thanks!

[Sam Spoons]

Always have a backup plan (don't as me how I know ).

So, Plan A :- as above

Plan B :- Split the mic to FOH and the mackie desk using your Art mic splitter and mono keys via a single DI box to FOH (with the thru going to the Mackie). You'll have two 'me' channels on the Mackie (how do you hear the rest of the band BTW? A feed from an aux on the Soundcraft into the Mackie?), your FOH sound will be controlled entirely from the Soundcraft and your IEM sound from the Mackie with neither one affecting the other.

[alexis]

Quick review of tonight's gig, in thanks for all your help.

First the great news - the gig started perfectly, and ended perfectly. Thank you all!!!!

Unknown, very puzzling emotionally devastating period in the middle of the gig - keyboard went to cr*p. It sounded muffled, like a blanket, almost now that I think of it like the two feeds (L/R) were combined to mono (I wish I had thought of that earlier).

As part of this massive suckiness, I realized the overall volume coming out of the PAs was much less as well.

At the intermission I powered the keyboard up and down, and I pulled the TRS tips out of my keyboard L/R and put them back in, also unplugged and replugged the ART DTI connections - no change, it still sucked. I should have said earlier - nobody made any changes to any settings during the gig, I just noticed all of a sudden that it sucked, but of course it could have been a gradual worsening and I wouldn't know.

The sound in the IEMs was fine, the mixer got it's feed from the 1/4 inputs of the ART DTI, TRS-TRS..

The signal path was keyboards L/R to ART DTI via TRS-XLRm, then on to Soundcraft. I had two TRS cables come back to an input channel in my mixer for IEMs. This was the path that worked great until it didn't.

I troubleshooted some more during the break, and I fixed it! What I did was what I did earlier (I powered the keyboard up and down, and I pulled the TRS tips out of my keyboard L/R and put them back in, also unplugged and replugged the ART DTI connections), but in addition to that I toggled the power on both the power strip that the keyboard was plugged into (the kind with 4 or 5 plugs in it), and did the same for the power switch on the mixer as well.

After all those "interventions" (uggh) - everything was perfect in keyboard land again!

"Electricity": My keyboard is two prong only, it went into the above-mentioned extension cord box, which also had my mixer (3-pronged), and my computer tablet (2-pronged like my keyboard) plugged into it.

My extension cord box was plugged into another extension cord box, which was plugged into the wall.

I'm not sure if the power amp for the PA is plugged into the same circuit, I think it may be (at least I think they share a pair of outlets on the same wall connection), but I may be wrong about that.

At least to me at this point it seems like the failure was due to a time-dependent process - things are great, then something changes over time (some kind of charge builds up?), sound goes to cr*p, and powering everything down, including the plug itself resets it.

Another possible cause - could my keyboard be going to mono when it's on for a few hours? I wouldn't think this was the problem though, because powering the keyboard up/down alone didn't solve the issue.

Anyway, I know that I'll have great sound from the keyboard if every few hours I go through the extensive process I listed above. But does any of this ring a bell with anyone?

Thanks again - I am miles ahead of where I started with all this!

(And my vocals were loud and clear ... the initial problem I wrote about!).

[Hugh Robjohns]

I'm glad it all works well, at least some of the time.

The low volume/muffled keyboard thing is intriguing.

I know in the heat of the moment when panic sets in the natural reaction is to randomly fiddle with anything and everything in the desperate hope of fixing the problem... but you really need to be much more logical and considered to stand any hope of understanding the problem and resolving it permanently.

You appear to be saying that your in-ears sounded good throughout?

If that's the case then you can immediately rule out any problem with the keyboard and cables to the DTI box, as well as the cables to the mixer and all things Mackie.

So that leaves the output from the DTI box, the cables to FOH, and the FOH operation itself. If nothing is moving on stage the DTI box can't be affected by anything, so you've only got dodgy connections to check there.

At this point you need help from who ever was operating FOH, because all that's left are the cables from the stage, the soundcraft mixer and the PA itself.

Did the console operator notice a change in output tone or level from the keyboard? If not the problem is in the mix or the PA. If they did then you've got some dodgy stage cable problems.

Did they do anything to the mix that caused the effects you describe?

Given that the mixer can be controlled remotely, was anyone else tweaking things during your performance?